Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.43.0408111157460.18638-100000@parka.winternet.com>
From: dufresne at winternet.com (Ron DuFresne)
Subject: iDEFENSE - New Tricks [web censorship!]

Interesting, yet, so far lacking in any real evidence that Idefense was
the force behind their demise.  Is there something other then heresay and
conjecture to back up the claim?

Thanks,

Ron DuFresne


On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Ben Ryan wrote:

>
> > do you have any links or backing that iDefense did all of this? any emails
> > from them to the site or ISP?
>
> None are public, and I am not close enough to the owner of the site concerned to
> have obtained that information from him. I take it on good faith that he has
> evidence that iDEFENSE was behind the censorship push, and I have no reason to
> believe otherwise - that sort of censure would fit with idefense's belief set.
> Plus roguesci.org has been around for a long time before this, and survived a fair amount of
> controversy. It must have taken a fair push to have it shutdown - and I thought
> idefense had some backing from US DoD/.gov? That would probably be enough.
> It is possible the host ISP has done roguesci.org a favour by at least informing
> them of the complainant (they probably didn't have to), and in return asked that
> they not be revealed as the "whistleblower" on the complainant (possible
> reprisals??)
> Either way, I don't believe any of the props behind roguesci.org had any prior
> 'grudge' against idefense. In fact I would be suprised if this is the first time
> they have ever heard of them. Roguesci.org is about 'fringe' science, not
> hacking or security. They would be lucky to read bugtraq.
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Ben Ryan wrote:
> > : [Len and others:
> > : Some info on iDEFENSE and their attempts to censor sites they believe are
> > : 'dangerous'.. considering their hatred for the principles of speech and full
> > : disclosure in security, if this snowballs way out of control, could FULL-DISCLOSURE be
> > : next??]
> > :
> > :
> > : Remember them? Didn't they try selling chocolate teapots as cures against the
> > : "global terror" facing information technology?
> > : (They told me Robert T Morris was working for Al-Qaida, is that true??)
> > :
> > : Having achieved little of consequence, and with their "alliance" about as effective as a motorcycle ashtray,
> > : it looks like iDEFENSE are "relaunching or "reloading" as "iNTeRNeT
> > guardians" against the terrible plague
> > : of free knowledge infesting the iNTERNET. As defined by them, obviously.
> > :
> > : According to figures involved, idefense (don't they have a dictionary?) put the
> > : squeeze on QWK (www.qwknetllc.com) to shut down the "Rogue Science" website and
> > : forum (www.roguesci.org). For no purpose other than they disliked its content.
> > : As far as we know, none of the content violated any laws such as DMCA (law
> > : or joke, you decide), except perhaps some fair use copyrighted material
> > : reproduced for research purposes.
> > : No legal reason or order was produced to force the ISP to close the site, it
> > : merely did so under 'duress' or pressure.
> > :
> > : This seems to be just a continuation of the sort of behaviour that this group
> > : condone: secrecy, anti-open/anti-freedom, closed-shop, obfuscation, possible
> > : blackmail/threats. We all know how they would like to have sole control of info
> > : on all the nasty security holes, and keep anyone from knowing about them. Except
> > : people who pay them money. And maybe the people who might abuse them for
> > : 'national security' reasons.
> > : If you deal with these people, beware. And if you support a world where
> > : information is free, refuse to deal with them. Make the the LAST to know.
> > :
> > : [ http://www.roguesci.org/ - This is a forum and website devoted solely to the free discussion of information
> > : amongst participating members. While some its content was controversial according to some,
> > : it was just information. Not: 'hate' speech, political lobbying (RIAA/MPAA), sponsoring 'terrorism',
> > : advocating violence, wanton damage, obscenity (extreme/child/illegal or
> > : otherwise), religion.]
> > :
> > : thanks for listening, and by the way, they didn't kill roguesci.org. It has
> > : reopened, with multiple mirrors and encrypted distributed backups.
> > : And the people who use it aren't happy.
> > :
> > : And thanks iDEFENSE, you just redoubled the resolve of the people you were
> > : trying to censor!
> > :
> > : --
> > : mailto:ben@...c.edu.au
> > :
> > : _______________________________________________
> > : Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> > : Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
> > :
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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	***testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!***

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