Message-ID: <e92364c3041018035715c5b566@mail.gmail.com>
From: jftucker at gmail.com (James Tucker)
Subject: Microsoft Windows Huge Text Processing Instability

I am sorry, maybe I just don't get it, but the two forms you are
talking about could not happen in the scenario described.

Besides this fact, user data space still has to be violated and this
still requires either privileges (which means you have access anyway)
or requires an exploit to elevate your privileges (again this makes
the vector you describe pointless, it would only cause the ATTACKER
issues).

There are some other VERY obvious stupidities here:

1. The system is described as "unstable" and "unresponsive" due to the
load and virtual memory usage. Paging takes time and the system seems
largely unresponsive whilst waiting for disk I/O. In this scenario,
how the * are you to exploit the system? At the point of such high
resource load that this becomes a problem the user will be unable to
log out. Furthermore the attacker will be unable to log in / run
programs unless they have taken control of the PC (not meaning
personal computer, look up operating system principles (kernel design,
in particular process and memory management) and assembler / machine
coding if you dont know what it means).

2. This 'attack' is entirely dependant upon RAM volume. If the system
in question has enough physical memory it will remain responsive, as
it is paging operations which block (block in the thread sense), not
loading operations.

3. taskkill /f /im "notepad.exe"

4. Notepad2 and Metapad have been extremely badly coded if it is
easier to perform process injection with these than with Notepad. I do
not understand why you could not simply take over some other user
process or a system process using the same vector. There are plenty of
other processes you could use for this purpose.

5. What exactly are you claiming to be "exploiting?"; system load is
not an exploit, it's wasteful resource useage. Memory useage quotas
are the proper management system for this.

6. Workarounds :- 
    Replace relevant executables with scripts to prevent loading of
files above a certain size.
    Educate such stupid people who might try to open a >200mb file in
a very basic text editor. What are you planning on doing, reading it
all?
    Use Wordpad, despite its appearance.
    Increase the amount of physical ram available.
    Add end task on fail entries into the user control panel section
of the registry / via group policy.
    this is one of the thins that Telnet is good for. =) 
    

Very well, I agree that you can create a local DoS on low end systems
using this abusive process; at the same time you still require access
to the system and priviliges. Attacks may only be performed by
utilising other exploits or higher level priviliges which already
provide the ability to do what you describe (capture data). Using
process injection to do this is simply a HUGE waste of your own time.


As for possibilities for remote exploits via this:
- The file will need to be landed first / created upon arrival (slow
over a network). Whilst a simple CLI script can create this for you,
you need priviliges to do so; in this case you will not be disclosing
any information. As described above, the user would not open it
themselves more than once (even the most unexperienced people will
fear repeating an action which makes most of the system unresponsive
(for most users they would consider the load problems as a crash, and
will not have the patience to wait for completion).
- If the information in the file contains sensitive data, then why has
the user attempted to load it in Notepad? If they created it, it was
not in Notepad (as they would have to DoS their machine for several
minutes before editing, which would then be painful to use). Somewhat
unlikely.
- Remote process injection does not just work because some program is
running without a desktop session.


What is the value of this information?

What 'exploit' can really be performed?

Are there not easier ways to achieve the same effect (remember ALL you
are doing here is causing mass paging of data, and paging
unfortunately blocks in this situation as there is no memory free for
the working environment).

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:41:23 +0330, Kaveh Mofidi <admin@...uretarget.net> wrote:
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1 
>   
> Secure Target Network (Security Advisory October 17, 2004)
> Topic: Microsoft Windows Huge Text Processing Instability
> Discovery Date: October 14, 2004
> Link to Original Advisory: http://securetarget.net/advisory.htm
>  
> Affected applications and platforms:
> Notepad, NotePad2 and MetaPad (Seems like all Text Processing Apps) /
> Microsoft Windows (All Versions)

You did not test wordpad, but instead tried several thrid party apps instead?
Your assumption that NT is at fault is incorrect. Nothing crashes and
no new vectors are created.
  
> Introduction:
> It is not important, the limitation of opening large text file with
> "notepad" or similar products like NotePad2
> (http://www.flos-freeware.ch) and MetaPad
> (http://liquidninja.com/metapad/); the point is just the way these
> tiny text processing apps open and handle large text files (talking
> about over the 200MB).
> The way they handle huge text files, it is near possible for a fast
> modern PC to be completely unstable. This Instability may path to
> process injection because you cannot even kill the processes of these
> apps and they will remain "up and running" even when you logged off.

How did you log off? I thought the system was unresponsive? The apps
will close when sent a TERM signal, they just need time to deal with
their memory load.

> So, it's possible for a unprivileged user to simply hook to the
> remaining process of a privilege user and this lead to information
> disclosure (simply reading the content of the memory before swapping
> a large file which happens time after time, based on the file size)
> but may even lead to running privileged tasks based on the app they
> used for processing text.

And how exactly are they going to do that? How much memory useage do
you need for this exploit? To get the system to respond in a timely
fashion you would need to access the PC and slow the paging quantum,
this is by far a trivial task, and contrary to the above this requires
the highest priviliges you can have in in NT, suffice to say not even
Administrators have such access rights.


> Exploit:
> It is different to exploit based on the application you choose for
> text processing; for windows default notepad.exe, it'll be some like
> a huge DoS but for NotePad2.exe and MetaPad.exe it is possible to
> doing process injection (information disclosure and/or running
> privileged tasks).

So what, they open up a shared memory space / revoke their protected
user space? No, I suspect they are no easier to exploit than any
other; apart from maybe their code is more understandable / better
documented, making it easier for the "n00b". Why would you use such a
program?

> Workaround:
> The best way to work around this situation is just not to open large
> text files in windows! or wait a long time for completion of task.

No way?


> Tested on:
> Microsoft Windows XP SP1/SP2RC2/SP2 on Intel P4 2.4 with 1GB of RAM

You really installed a copy of each version to test this? :( sux2bu

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