Message-ID: <20050904140623.71A33C6@lists.grok.org.uk>
Date: Sun Sep  4 15:06:29 2005
From: cfullerton at fullertoninfosec.com (Chuck Fullerton)
Subject: RE: Computer forensics to uncover
	illegalinternet use

All,
 
I do find this like of discussion very interesting.  However, there has been
so much discussion that it's getting difficult to folllow.  Therefore, I'd
like to make the following recommendation for future posts.
 
1.  Minimize the text you to which you are replying to the pertinent info.
2.  Everyone use the same method of replying..  (i.e. inline, top or bottom)
I don't care which but it's really getting tough to follow.
3.  Keep the discussion going as I'm really getting alot out of this.  ;-)
 
Sincerely,
 
Chuck Fullerton
 

  _____  

From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk
[mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk] On Behalf Of Steve Kudlak
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:45 AM
To: dave kleiman
Cc: 'Craig, Tobin (OIG)'; echow@...eotron.ca; 'Sadler,Connie';
jbeauford@...htInOnePet.com; 'Full-Disclosure';
security-basics@...urityfocus.com
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] RE: Computer forensics to uncover
illegalinternet use


dave kleiman wrote: 

Steve,



Inline..



  

Hate to play alwyer here but doesn't all of this get shot down by 3rd

Circuit Federal Court of Appeals decisions regarding the FBI's

Innocent Images project?  It basicly shot down the concept of  "you

clicked on a chold porn link therefore you're guilty."

    



Well that applies to when it is determined that it was innocent.  This could

be via pop-up, trojan, or maleware of some kind.







  

This is all enshired in Federal

Cases. No one must admit that a good prosecutor can indioct a  ham

sandwich and all that. But overall that doesn't happen.

Now Federal Prosecutors and Investigations staffs are very  good at

sort of getting warrants and raiding someone's house  or business and

going thru everything. But if the person  doesn't scare and cop to

something they never did, then  federal prosecutors generally have to

back off in cases where  it is just things accumulating on disks etc.

    



Well they do not usually prosecute ham sandwiches, BLT's maybe.



I love how everyone is quick to say things just magically accumulated on

their H/D.  However, they tend not back of when a file structure is found

with hundreds of images, often burned to CD's.



  

Futhermore in

states with a high privacy expectation like California there is a good

reason to say "We don't go through our customers data looking for

things out of the ordinary". One might argue it to be different it

were one's employees. However if you are offering a primo privacy

service then you can legitimately scrub disks as a part of the biz

plan.

    



Well that may be, of course you missed the beginning of these threads, where

Mr. Combs suggested after discovering contraband on and employees H/D, to

make a copy of it take the copy to the companies attorney. Wipe the original

and "best course of action is to purposefully falsify the record of the

company's response to the incident"



The full threads can be read here:



http://seclists.org/lists/security-basics/2005/Sep/subject.html

http://seclists.org/lists/security-basics/2005/Aug/subject.html





  

Much of Law Enforcement and theiir Public Providers of services

depends on scaring people and businesses into good behavior when it is

neither necessary or ethical. My suspicion is that one can ignore this

tactic if one wishes as one is reasonably careful.. I am sure that

people will be offereing  "Computer Forensics Services" to find the

scary things on your compnys disks for $500 a pop but no good reason

one has to engage in such silliness.

    





Yes that crazy scaring people into good behavior....... Oh wait that is

right only reasonably prudent people follow the law, criminals tend to not

care if there is law against something, they are not scared into not

committing crimes, that is why they are criminals.



Kind of like the lawlessness that is occurring in the situation you

mentioned below.  Some people would say that the devastation has turned

these people into criminals. Although, the reality is the people committing

the crimes are the same ones that were committing them before the

devastation.



  

Excuse my flipness. I just got through friends caught up in this call

people stranded and alone by the hurricane in the SOuthland and all

these other things do ring silly right now.



    



Regards,



Dave







  

For a long time I sysop'd an open system, I dunno how much time I ended up
deleteing "girl with vaccum cleaner" pictures. This is getting weirder and
weirder because with photoshop people can create things that do not exist in
real reality. Of course you have really funny things like this one image
that was from Japanese advertizing. They had a 10 year girl with this
incredibly large pretty phallic looking squirt gun which she was squirting
with a look of bliss on her face. It was pretty funny. It was funny how when
showed this image it became a "cynicism filter". People would divide into
the group that thought this was completely enmgineerd from the get-go and
those who thought it was just some werid thing that came out and no one
noticed it, or that it was the product of the fact that much of  Japanese
Culture doesn't quite go looking for all possible suggestive variants.  It
really became a filter.

Now my suspicion about people in the US Southland is that it is a bit of
opppurtunism in the face of despair and the feeling that "whitey has been
shitting on us for centuries". Me being on the North American  West Coast
doesn't notice that because there were no slave quarters and slave markets
in California, Washington, Oregon, British Columbia and we are apt to think
a "quadroon" is a small gold coin that would be nice to find in one's
progentitors coin collection. I don't think it is because there is just a
massive criminal element hidden from us. Now some of the behavior sounded
like what I found in my tenure at a small residential hotel. From the last
week of the month to the first week of the next month a number of curious
items would end up for sale. It was always curious to imagine where these
items came from, some were legitimatgely obtained, others probably not.
There was always an argument among the low rent district types that
universally almost always aligned as "crazy white guys accusing mexicans of
shop lifting and reselling, whereas many of the items they had could be seen
as coming from equally questionable sources. 

Now if one talks to Federal Proscutors they will tell you that they feel
comfortable with their "Vacuum Cleaner" approach. They feel if they do go
and get everyone questionables stuff and go through it, then one will be
able to determine how many folks had thing accumulating on their disk and
how many actively collected it etc. Now interestingly with the Third
Circuit's Decision which is close to rock solid at this point in precdent,
people like journalists would sort of get wide descretion especially if they
were working on stories and doing investigations etc. 

Two other things come in here. In both the US Ninth Circuit and Upper Level
Courts of British Columbia it has been held that one can not commit crimes
against "virtual children" or "animated descriptions of children etc".  This
means the general belief in liberal democracies that "thought crimes" are
questionable is beginning to be enshired in code and precedent. I am pretty
sure this is well embedded in North American Culture and is apt not to go
away even with the idea, darfe I say spectre two very conservative
reversalist judges on the Supreme Court. Note I have not had time to study
how things work in the EU or even Australia. 

Now technoculturally want this may eventually provoke is the use of high
grade encryption by more people. Right now I know even artists who hqave
become more technologically saavy and who encrypt things even when legal
code is on their side overall. In the 1970s and 1980s there were a number of
legal razzlements of artists who used their children as nude models no
matter how innocent. This went too far and eventaully what got established
is the concept that "simple nudity is not obscene".  It is interesting
because artists are not usually seen as users or consumers of secuiity
products and things like encryption.

Anyway this is all very interesting and we do live in interesting times. So
it will be interesting to see how this will go and whether the bizness idea
of trying to safe from all possible wrongdoing or perceived wrongdoing will
win out overall. I know lots of vendors and security consultants have been
hoping that "porn protection" would turn into a lucerative field but so far
it doesn't compare to virus and malware protection. 

Interestingly in artist circles the whole imaging thing has turned into
"sousveillence" and artists have been having way too much fun turning the
cameras back on the people who usually use them.  It is interesting that
people like Sudo Chiles House who was one of the first people to install a
"cam" which in her case was a 35mm camera that took pictures regularly of
her bedroom is all buit forgotten in the modern installatiion of cams in
various public and private spaces. Note the UK and places in Florida have
been very much into the "you are being watched" theory of crime control. I
also have heard tales of  "spy camera destroyers" who have been running
around spray painting cameras but I think that is not widespread at this
point.  Hmmm, indeed these are interesting times. whether it is a blessing
or a curse is an open question.

Have Fun,
Sends Steve



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