Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:33:10 +0530
From: "sysman" <sysman@...l.com>
To: "Florian Streck" <streck@...afloh.de>, <rakesh@...man.in>
Cc: 'full-disclosure' <full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>,
	bugtraq@...urityfocus.com
Subject: Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project
	HayNeedle

Florian,

The scenario painted by you is scary.

Is Nazism and GDR is still alive in German government veins? Can they become
third Reich again? Will the world allow that? Is the media not independent
or government slave? Is judiciary committed to government and not
independent? I can understand the power grabbing by government servants.
That is true everywhere. But, the media, judiciary and social checks and
controls keep them on control.

I have a different opinion of Unified Germany. Since, you are part of it,
you know better.

Regards,
Rakesh

-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Streck [mailto:streck@...afloh.de]
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:53 PM
To: rakesh@...man.in
Cc: 'Paul Sebastian Ziegler'; bugtraq@...urityfocus.com; 'full-disclosure'
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Standing Up Against German Laws - Project
HayNeedle


Hello Rakesh,

> 2. Even if, it is there, it is for Public good. It is to protect you
against
> terrorism. Yes, this amounts to big brother is watching, but many times,
> that is essential. Remember USA 9/11/2001, London 7/7/2006, India (many
many
> incidents). Have trust in your government. I believe, German government
> machinery is reasonable efficient and honest. If communication
transactions
> are logged, what is the harm? In case of any incident, how will the
> government investigate? If you are a security professional, don't you
advise
> your client for all this like audit logs etc.

I think this is not correct. People with enough "criminal energy" have
ways to circumvent any of the governments measures. The only people
caught by this are idiot criminals, people that are to lazy to protect
teir privacy (like me) and the normal citizen who has no idea of what is
happening.
The harm is, that if your communication habbits have suspicious patterns
you are a suspect. And you don't even know about it. Like those
No-Fly-Lists. You don't know that you are on it till it's too late (and
you miss your flight) and you have no way to get of it. How do you prove
that you are innocent if the polices software says you are behaving
suspicious?

> 3. Even if, you need to protest, please do. This is your right. But, this
is
> not the way to protest. Even if you say that technically you are not
> breaking any law, the difference between you and a law breaker is very
thin.
> If you want to protect, use democratic methods. Write about it in print
> media. Use electronic media to mobilise opinion. Create Blogs. Send
e-mails.
> Lobby with MPs (members of Bundestag). If your ideas will appeal to
people,
> many will raise voice. Ultimately, law is manifestation of social
> aspirations for social good. As I understand, Germany (Deutschland) is a
> vibrant democracy and not a dictatorship or oppressive state. Further, ask
> the background - why this law was necessary? In a democracy, laws are made
> after careful and well defined process. Ask for the details of the
process.

All this is beeing done right now. As soon as this law is put into
effect there will be an action at the constitutional court. But I fear
that this will not be enough. We will have to investigate the government
measures and develop technical countermeasures. And then teach the
people what is done, what's the harm in it and how to circumvent it.

> 4. If you can cite some incidents of misuse / oppression by the government
> machinery of any other law, you can quote that in venting your feelings /
> opinion.

We have a sad history of oppressive governments that used just methods
like that. First it was the nazis and then in eastern germany the
socialist government. They'd have been thrilled about the possibilities
that our police will get. They also mixed up secret services and police
as it is beeing done right now here in germany. They (at least the
nazis) used democratic laws to build a dictatorship.

Right now we still have a democracy. But I'm not sure where the way will
go to.

Florian Streck

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