Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:59:42 -0400
From: "Garrett M. Groff" <groffg@...design.com>
To: <full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Free Iraq

A thoughtful reply was posed to my address rather than the list. I'll keep 
the sender anonymous & post my reply since others have posed similar 
concerns:


Excellent point. Initially, a "puppet regime" would be in place to run the 
country on a day to day basis. Actually, I'm more concerned about the 
pertinent country's 1) access to the global economy as well as 2) security. 
Point 2 is obvious enough, so I'll focus on point 1.

Simply stated, countries that have or are moving in the direction of broad 
economic integration with the rest of the world (i.e., that are or are 
becoming more "globalized," to use the vogue term) tend to be more moderate 
in their ideologies, better (or getting better) in their governance and 
governmental transparency, and more economically productive. On that last 
point, I'll take keeping people busy with jobs over the prospect of millions 
of "idle hands."

Economics binds people together, even if they're of disparate cultures and 
beliefs, and gives them a means of constructive, non-violent engagement with 
each other. It leads to idea-sharing that would otherwise be difficult and 
discouraged. It leads to distribution of power away from the central 
government, as people compete constructively in the private sector rather 
than just politically in the halls of power. Oh, and it also increases 
aggregate prosperity in the region, and by extension, across the globe.

Globalization is the answer to Salafist (Sunni extremist)-borne terrorism in 
the long run (or any terrorist ideological movement), as alternate view 
points dilute local/regional extremism and, pragmatically, give people other 
things to do. The same effect occurs in rogue regimes, assuming we (or 
someone) is able to "persuade" the heads of state in those regimes to allow 
exterior connectivity.

The strategic vision that I'm suggesting is that we use our global power 
projection as the initial phase in taking out stubborn regimes. That's a 
small part of the picture, but still a necessary piece.

- G


----- Original Message ----- 
From: [REMOVED]
To: "Garrett M. Groff" <groffg@...design.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Free Iraq


> Only problem is that the "re-building" usually involves the
> installation of a dictator who supports American policies at the
> expense of that nation's people's rights.
>
> --
> [NAME REMOVED]
>
> On 3/27/08, Garrett M. Groff <groffg@...design.com> wrote:
>> Excellent points, with exception to the gratuitious name-calling (just 
>> b/c
>>  there are annoying people on this list who throw out invective doesn't 
>> mean
>>  we should submit to our temptation to do the same vile practice back to
>>  them).
>>
>>  I'll add the following (despite the fact that it's grossly off-topic!). 
>> The
>>  Iraq war was more than just a follow-up to a UN resolution or two. It 
>> was a
>>  desire by neo-conservatives to re-make the Middle East. That desire is
>>  partly strategic and partly political. Strategic: eliminate the threat 
>> of
>>  WMD proliferation (including to Salafist groups like Al Qaeda) by 
>> scaring
>>  rogue-ish countries into thinking "they're next" if they don't behave
>>  (think, Libya). The strategic plan was to go beyond Iraq and is often
>>  referred to as a "domino effect" whereby other mid-east nations 
>> liberalize
>>  their political systems and economies. Political: free up huge oil 
>> fields in
>>  Mesopotamia, bringing down global oil prices. Also, empower Republicans,
>>  making them appear more responsive & pro-active in a post-911 world to
>>  threats posed by rogue nations & global terrorist groups.
>>
>>  My focus is strategic, since the political side-effects are less 
>> important
>>  and less justifiable than the strategic argument.
>>
>>  Result...
>>  Unforutnately, the nation-rebuilding effort is not going well (compared 
>> to
>>  the actual "war" which went well by historic standards, lasting only 
>> about 4
>>  weeks; everything since has involved dealing with the war's aftermath). 
>> I
>>  can think of specific things that would have made the nation re-building
>>  campaign much more likely to succeed. Rather than a lengthy explanation 
>> on
>>  that, I'll say this. Think about what would have happened if the Bush
>>  administration weren't so inept and if Iraq had been a successful model 
>> of
>>  nation re-building. That model could be replicated to other 
>> nation-states
>>  that are arguably and egregiously bad, be it countries with a) too much
>>  government (dictatorships) or b) too little government (many African 
>> states,
>>  which are tribal & lack sufficient central governance).
>>
>>  A "nation re-making" process that falls under UN legitimacy would be
>>  powerful, shifting the American focus from maintaining the "superpower
>>  status quo" to "making the world better." Sounds controversial (like 
>> some
>>  imperial colonial fantasy), but try living in the DPRK, Cuba, or Sudan, 
>> and
>>  tell me those nations aren't screwed up and wouldn't go for a "nation
>>  re-making" make-over, provided that it actually worked.
>>
>>  The US (and others) will certainly engage in nation re-building again. 
>> If
>>  you don't believe that, then check out recent US history. It's really 
>> just a
>>  question of when, where, and to what extent. Next time, I hope the war's
>>  aftermath goes substantially better and involves broad international
>>  legitimacy, not to mention significant involvement in the post-war phase
>>  (where the US actually needs allies).
>>
>>
>>  - G
>>
>>
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: <Throwaway1@...umbus.rr.com>
>>
>> To: <full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:22 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Free Iraq

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