Message-Id: <20080711174752.36CC92003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:47:50 -0400
From: "Elazar Broad" <elazar@...hmail.com>
To: rsw@...t.org, tcross@...ibm.com
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: DNS and NAT (was: DNS and CheckPoint)

I can confirm the same behavior on a Cisco PIX 501 running 6.3(5). 
Port numbers are incremented sequentially by one...

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:01:33 -0400 Thomas Cross <tcross@...ibm.com> 
wrote:
>Riad,
>
>    Thanks for testing this. A number of other readers wrote me 
>privately
>confirming your result with linux ipchains. I'm not sure what 
>ipchains does
>when it encounters a collision, but in general I think this is a 
>good
>strategy. You'd have to have many thousands of simultaneous UDP
>transactions in order for randomly selected source ports to be 
>colliding
>frequently enough for it to present a substantial problem.
>    On the other hand, I've also been contacted by readers who 
>confirm that
>other devices besides the one imipack mentioned share it's 
>behavior. There
>appears to be room for some research here into what collision 
>avoidance
>strategies are employed by different NAT devices, what happens to 
>those
>devices under high load, and what the security implications are.
>Fortunately, Linux appears to do a good job with this right now, 
>and
>provides an example approach that NAT vendors can look to.
>    I'll post more if I have time to dig into this in further 
>detail.
>
>Regards,
>Tom Cross
>IBM X-Force
>
>
>
>                                                                   
>        
>             "Riad S. Wahby"                                       
>        
>             <rsw@...t.org>                                        
>        
>                                                                   
>     To 
>             07/10/2008 11:06          Thomas 
>Cross/Atlanta/IBM@...US      
>             PM                                                    
>     cc 
>                                       full-
>disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk   
>                                                                   
>Subject 
>                                       Re: DNS and NAT (was: DNS 
>and       
>                                       CheckPoint)                 
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>Thomas Cross <tcross@...ibm.com> wrote:
>>    We've also been wondering whether NAT devices ought to 
>randomly assign
>>    UDP source ports, although no NAT vendor that wea**re aware 
>of has
>done
>>    this to date.
>
>Some quick testing implies that ipchains MASQUERADE-based NAT 
>doesn't
>suffer this problem because it preserves the source port.
>
>My test setup is as follows: call the computer inside the NAT 
>Alice, and
>the computer outside Bob.  Alice contacts Bob via Trent, a linux-
>based
>router, in my case a DLink DSL-2540B DSL modem / router combo.  On
>Alice, I run the following:
>
>( for j in $(seq 1 100); do i=$RANDOM; /bin/echo -n "$i "; echo $i 
>| nc -q
>0 -vv -p $i -u <Bob> 5555; sleep 1; done ) &> foo.Alice
>
>On Bob, I run
>
>( while true; do nc -vv -l -u -p 5555 -q 0 </dev/null; done ) &> 
>foo.Bob
>
>At the end, I compare the actual source port in foo.Alice to the
>apparent source port in foo.Bob.  In my setup, they are always
>identical.
>
>Obviously it is impossible to guarantee that this will always be 
>the
>case; in order to identify dangerous corner cases one would have 
>to
>consult the ipchains code, but given the relative frailty of the
>randomized source port / randomized sequence number solution, for 
>a
>small number of computers behind a NAT (e.g., home users) I claim 
>that's
>a second-order danger at best.
>
>In a large production environment where there is a huge amount of 
>NAT
>traffic being generated one would do well to consider a solution 
>like
>Thomas's suggestion that the servers be moved outside the 
>firewall.
>
>-=rsw

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