Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:19:55 -0700
From: "James Matthews" <nytrokiss@...il.com>
To: rholgstad <rholgstad@...il.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: [inbox] Re: Supporters urge halt to hacker's,
	extradition to US

7 :p

On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 10:15 PM, rholgstad <rholgstad@...il.com> wrote:

> thanks for this amazing insight. you must be a 5 time cissp
>
> James Matthews wrote:
>
>> When you break into a system using an exploit there is a chance that the
>> shellcode will crash the system.
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Exibar <exibar@...lair.com <mailto:
>> exibar@...lair.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     McKinnon did cause damage:
>>
>>    "The charges include one incident - shortly after the attacks on
>>    September
>>    11 2001 - which brought down a network of 300 computers at the
>>    Earle naval
>>    weapons station. Another raid apparently left 2,000 government
>>    machines in
>>    Washington inoperable."
>>    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/apr/28/hacking.security
>>
>>     A message left by him on a system:
>>
>>    "As part of his quest he left this message on an Army computer in
>>    2002:
>>    "U.S. foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these
>>    days.... It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand
>>    down on
>>    September 11 last year ... I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt
>>    at the
>>    highest levels."
>>    http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/uk-hacker-gary.html  (and
>>    many
>>    other sources with the same message)
>>
>>     Sure sounds like a criminal that knows what he's doing, and is
>>    doing it
>>    willfully, doesn't it?
>>
>>     Oh yah, and he's really only facing a fine and up to 10 years of
>>    prison
>>    time in the US...  I guess things really are different translating
>>    to the
>>    metric system in the UK...
>>     http://www.fortlewismwr.com/Computer_Fraud_Abuse_Act.htm
>>
>>     Wondering what the maximum term in the UK is for the same crime?
>>     Hold on
>>    to your seat...
>>    LIFE IN PRISON (see next paragraph)
>>
>>    "As the Divisional Court itself pointed out (at para 34), the
>>    gravity of the
>>    offences alleged against the appellant should not be understated: the
>>    equivalent domestic offences include an offence under section 12
>>    of the
>>    Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990 for which the maximum
>>    sentence is
>>    life imprisonment."
>>
>> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1
>>    .htm
>>    <
>> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1.htm
>> >
>>      That link is a link to the very court brief itself on McKinnin's
>>    appeal
>>    in the UK...
>>
>>      McKinnon should face the charges of computer crime that he's
>>    facing.  He
>>    should, and will, be tried, either in the US or in the UK.  But,
>>    keep in
>>    mind that it is the UK that will extradite him, and it is the UK
>>    that has
>>    ruled that he *should* be extradited for his crimes....
>>
>>
>>    Ok, I'm done now :-)
>>
>>     Exibar
>>
>>
>>    -----Original Message-----
>>    From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk
>>    <mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk>
>>    [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk
>>    <mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk>] On Behalf Of
>>    Kyrian
>>    Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:31 AM
>>    To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
>>    <mailto:full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
>>    Subject: [inbox] Re: [Full-disclosure] Supporters urge halt to
>>    hacker's,extradition to US
>>
>>    full-disclosure-request@...ts.grok.org.uk
>>    <mailto:full-disclosure-request@...ts.grok.org.uk> wrote:
>>    >> "American officials involved in this case have stated that they
>>    want
>>    >> to see him 'fry'."-- BBC.
>>    >>
>>    [IANAL, correct me if I'm wrong, etc, but...]
>>
>>    Yes, that's a large part of the problem.
>>
>>    That courts *can* be bought (usually indirectly via already-bought
>>    officials, or more nasty methods), and that government officials have
>>    said the above makes it worse still.
>>
>>    The thought that US law was apparently changed from requiring
>>    damage to
>>    systems to get a conviction to not requiring such damage, very
>>    recently,
>>    is another problem.
>>
>>    The fact that neither the US or the UK (as far as I'm aware) actually
>>    has a sane enough legal framework for this sort of thing, or enough
>>    police (anyonewho's dealt with the UK's former "High Tech Crime Unit"
>>    will know this), judges (there are many examples of judges being
>>    "out of
>>    touch" in their rulings), etc. who are actually aware enough of the
>>    underlying technology to deal with it sensibly is another.
>>
>>    I agree with whoever said that people should be extradited to the
>>    country in which they caused damage, but not under circumstances like
>>    these, and not when there is no agreed standard of law between the
>>    country the person would be extradited from, and the one they
>>    would go to.
>>
>>    In the UK it still requires damage to be done for it to be a criminal
>>    offense, and that does not seem set to change.
>>
>>    That it is possible to cause damage to (badly managed) systems by
>>    doing
>>    absolutely nothing in a lot of circumstances (as I am finding right
>>    now), that logs can be faked, and that the dividing line between
>>    probes
>>    versus actual hacking attempts is at times a very narrow one, there is
>>    plenty of reason not to agree extradite Gary.
>>
>>    That he's "autistic" is probably neither here nor there, I'm
>>    afraid, as
>>    it seems to be very common for people involved in computing the be
>>    somewhere high on the autistic spectrum (even if they are not
>>    'officially' autistic). I have taken the test. I'm not telling, but I
>>    know what I'm talking about.
>>
>>    So, I shall be there, I won't be shouting or chanting, but I will be
>>    there. I hope that the event is not hijacked by another purpose, and
>>    that I do not get shot by the armed police at the US Embassy there (it
>>    is a scarey looking place, which puts me on edge whenever I'm near).
>>    Strangely I also find myself wondering if the staff there are
>>    paying the
>>    London congestion charge yet, rather than ignoring it...?
>>
>>    Just my 2c, or so.
>>
>>    K.
>>
>>    --
>>    Kev Green, aka Kyrian. E: kyrian&#64;ore.org <http://ore.org> WWW:
>>    http://kyrian.ore.org/
>>    Linux/Security <http://kyrian.ore.org/Linux/Security>
>>    Contractor/LAMP Coder/ISP, via http://www.orenet.co.uk/
>>                    DJ via http://www.hellnoise.co.uk/
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.goldwatches.com/
>>
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>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>


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