Message-ID: <0f3601c94f15$b6df8255$24a052c6@cc.w2k.vt.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:51:52 -0500
From: "Memisyazici, Aras" <arasm@...edu>
To: "Eric Rachner" <eric@...hner.us>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk, bugtraq@...urityfocus.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft takes 7 years to 'solve' a problem?!

<snip>
M$ should just bite the incompatibility bullet and turn NTLM off - that's been an option for users, theoretically speaking, since about the time Windows Kerberos support became mature, and practically speaking, nobody seems to be turning NTLM off here in the real world.
</snip>

Err... Have ya' ever attended 'any' sec. conf. in the past 6 years?? If so, you'd see recommendation #1 has always been:

*) refuse LM & NTLM, accept NTLMv2 only

Really... It's not that bad...  And in my world it is above along with quite a few others. The "industry-std" to locking down Windows has involved the above step for years now (O'Reilly books, several respectable authors...)

As I said before, people have moved on long ago since Microsoft's "solutions" weren't acceptable at the time. Some made the switch to other OSes, some bought soft. to counter-act the effect, some focused on the security-side of things... Regardless tho; they moved on! After all these years M$ coming and saying, "yeah, btw we fixed this issue" is just... disappointing.


Aras 'Russ' Memisyazici
Systems Administrator
Virginia Tech


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Rachner <eric@...hner.us>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:26 AM
To: Memisyazici, Aras <arasm@...edu>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk <full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>; bugtraq@...urityfocus.com <bugtraq@...urityfocus.com>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Microsoft takes 7 years to 'solve' a problem?!

Hey, kid -

If you've got any better ideas about how to fix NTLM, the industry is ready & waiting to hear them.

The fact is, NTLM is an old & busted protocol that happens to be used everywhere, and there's no way to fix it without breaking compatibility with, oh, just the entire installed base.  I was happy to see MS08-068 because the technique it implements is better than nothing - it offers a nice, clever way to reduce the exploitability of the issue without breaking anything important.

Don't bother telling us all how M$ should just bite the incompatibility bullet and turn NTLM off - that's been an option for users, theoretically speaking, since about the time Windows Kerberos support became mature, and practically speaking, nobody seems to be turning NTLM off here in the real world.

- Eric


On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Memisyazici, Aras <arasm@...edu> wrote:


	<RANT>
	
	<snip:: taken from MSRC Blog: http://blogs.technet.com/msrc/archive/2008/11/11/ms08-068-and-smbrelay.aspx>
	
	What we released today with MS08-068 is that security update. It addresses the SMBRelay issue (discovered in 2001) does so in a way that doesn't have the negative impact on applications that we originally believed addressing this issue would have.
	
	</snip>
	
	So... Hmm... I wonder what would happen if the rest of the world followed suit with M$' approach, and took 7 years to "fix" an issue in order to "not cause a significant impact"...
	
	Scenario:
	
	Ppl: Hey Ford, if one brute-forces the keyless entry on the door, you're car explodes...
	
	Ford: well... I'll offer you three choices, two immediately, and the last one 7 yrs later. You can either not use the keyless entry system (we'll give you some shiny duck-tape to cover it) or you can use the biometric-knub system which requires that you have a knub... So those who have arms & legs can't use the system... (btw this will give birth to a whole new industry that will allow ppl to pay money for a product that fakes a knub for people with appendages) But it's biometric & cool this way! Or you can wait for 7 years and we'll release a non-exploding version of the keyless-entry system.
	
	***************************************
	
	OK... Maybe I'm going a bit extreme, but WTH?! Am I the only one who is interpreting this, this way? Really? When has releasing a solution to a problem 7 years later ever been acceptable?
	
	Jus' sayin' ...
	
	</RANT>
	
	Aras 'Russ' Memisyazici
	Systems Administrator
	Virginia Tech
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