Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:20:11 -0800
From: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@...merofgod.com>
To: rogue <wmrogue2@...glemail.com>, "glenn.everhart@...se.com"
	<glenn.everhart@...se.com>, "full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk"
	<full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Facebook Police

UK based?  Not sure if someone has strayed from the OP, but this is originally a Wisconsin-based issue, where underage drinking is also legal if accompanied by a legal guardian or if one's spouse is of legal drinking age.   That's not the issue...  I've already made my opinions on the matter public, but to reiterate, my main problems are:


1)      Photos being treated as "evidence" in the absence of any witnesses or any LE observation of an alleged crime.

2)      Officers on duty burning hours searching for aforementioned photographs to arrest people for actions that are not even criminal offenses.

3)      Aforementioned officers searching for aforementioned photos on a social site, lying about who they say they are, against the policy of the social site, who are taking advantage of the fact that the social site proclaims that they are trying to build trust and loyalty of their patrons by enforcing privacy policies.

Sure, it's tragic that the party town of La Crosse has lost 7 young men in 6 years to drowning, presumably due to alcohol abuse, but Iverson pretending to be a little girl isn't going to stop that.   Nor is lying about what your purpose is (this from the Police Chief magazine Nov 2009 article about La Crosse PD):

http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1782&issue_id=42009

"To alleviate these concerns, ACE officers developed and provided an evidence-based training curriculum that gives violators an opportunity to participate in an alcohol education class in lieu of paying fines."

Really?  I bet the kids paying $227 a pop would like to know about that.  And this from the City of La Crosse police report for 2008:

http://www.cityoflacrosse.org/DocumentView.aspx?DID=2631

"On my honor, I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character, or the public trust."   Really?  Pretending to be a little girl and arresting people for non-criminal offences isn't a betrayal of public trust?

<bitter sarcasm> Well, at least the people of La Crosse have something to be proud of.  It's clear that their officers are SO committed to impacting underage drinking that they sit in their offices all day on facebook while kids drown in the Mississippi.  Actually, that's not really fair.  Notwithstanding the fact that La Crosse has about 2 sexual assaults per week (and that's just the reported ones), it DOES seem like the officers are indeed getting out there with the public...  If you look at the above report link, you'll see that 2008 marked the highest number of issued parking tickets in almost a decade (almost 70,000 parking tickets).  Nice character and integrity. </bitter sarcasm>

What UoW-LaCrosse students should do is flood FB with pictures of staged underage drinking shots and put a stop to this.  Post them on purpose, and admit to posting them on purpose with empty bottles or cans.  This is a dangerous trend...  What's to stop me from finding some picture on the internet of some horrid crime, and setting up a fake FB account with someone else's name and information, and posting that photo with a gloating description for the sole purpose of harassing innocent people?  If this type of "evidence" is all that police need to arrest someone, then we could all be in very deep trouble.  I'm quite concerned about this.

t


From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk] On Behalf Of rogue
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 11:09 AM
To: glenn.everhart@...se.com
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Facebook Police

Yea Echelon

Also considering this is a UK based problem i cant really see the point as in the UK its
legal to drink at any age as long as you are under parents supervision.

-rogue

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 2:14 PM, <glenn.everhart@...se.com<mailto:glenn.everhart@...se.com>> wrote:
A picture of a beer can in someone's hand does not prove it contained anything, much less
beer. I have sometimes left glasses of things like apple juice with a bit of ice cream
foam on top in church (when the organist needed a drink) or spoken of such. I also recall
a lot of guys when I was in college making statements about their drinking and/or sexual
prowess which turned out to be exaggerated. (I also remember kids in jr. high smoking
cornsilk cigarettes in public to show off...or at least holding them to their mouths with
a burning end. Claim was they tasted awful.)

A beer or for that matter whiskey bottle might just as well contain tea. A picture by itself
even when not tampered with does not necessarily show what it's cracked up to...
You get suspicion, nothing more. And much less if making photos well documented to be
of faked circumstances gets popular. Remember all the email signatures on the net with
"NSA bait" phrases?

-----Original Message-----
From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk<mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk> [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk<mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk>] On Behalf Of Rohit Patnaik
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 11:55 AM
To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk<mailto:full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Facebook Police
Actually, I'm not sure what the issue is here.  Facebook is a public forum.  Underage drinking is an illegal act.  If
you post evidence of yourself committing an illegal act to a public forum, the police are free to come and arrest you,
and use the pictures that you posted as evidence against you.

The only complaint here seems to be that the police violated Facebook's Terms of Service in "friending" these underage
drinkers and gathering evidence against them.  However, I'm not sure how that's illegal in any way.  If it were,
undercover investigations and sting operations of all sorts would be illegal.

As I see it, these are kids who were caught out in their own stupidity, for doing something that they know to be
illegal, and then posting pictures.  Now these same kids are whining because the police were marginally more tech-savvy
than they assumed.

--Rohit Patnaik

On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 10:32:53AM +0100, netinfinity wrote:
>  "Facebook policy requires the use of one's real name to sign up, but
> they let the police use fake names.."
>
> Sure the policy says that but a lot of people are changing their names
> on a daily basis (ok maybe not daily). And majority of those changes
> are
> just for fun, but never the less they are against the policy. What
> about those people? Only way to verify or check someone's name is
> through IP (ISP). And that can't be done
> by will.. It must have some legal grounds...
>
> Let me get to the point, I'm sure that police is violating some some
> kind of human rights or even law's (?)
>
> --
> netinfinity
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
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