Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 23:56:59 +1000
From: xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com>
To: Louis McCoy <louie@...landlighthouse.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk, Ben Crabtree <bencrab@...il.com>
Subject: Re: VPN provider helped track down alleged
	LulzSec member

User location determines Judicial Jurisdiction - how is that irrelevant?

it is NOT atall.. he is kidding himself..
I already said just ONE country where i could happily commit crimes, in the
usa or uk from, and thru, panama.
simple as that, they wont execute crap unless you commit fraud etc, on
theyre home.
cheers.
xd


On 29 September 2011 23:54, Louis McCoy <louie@...landlighthouse.com> wrote:

>  User location determines Judicial Jurisdiction - how is that irrelevant?
>
>
> On 9/29/2011 9:27 AM, Benji wrote:
>
> No, you are wrong.
>
>  Either; the vpn provider complied with court order, or they face the
> legal ramifications of not doing so. User location is irrelevant.
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 2:04 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
>
>> indeed :)
>> but, it is how a proper anon person would operate, well, tht is how i once
>> did...
>> anyhow, it is to broad, and, yes, i qwould never believe in bulletproof,
>> unless i have used it maybe, for 10yrs, thru 10 botnets ;P wich, is very
>> rare but funnily, possible.
>> webhosters, are even more corrupt and better at hiding data.. face it, if
>> the vpn provider had not shat themself, then it would be a non story.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 29 September 2011 23:00, Benji <me@...ji.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 'Abuse' emails and court orders are very different.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:59 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> err, you are limited in those countries dude... id really checkup on
>>>> that ... maybe some but, yea i agree, i dont think any hosting is anon, but,
>>>> i sure know i have kept an anon dedis in past, and was VERY easy to avoid
>>>> handing anything over. Unless they had personally seized from my company, i
>>>> was allowed to basically get away with, and if i want to, again, could do
>>>> the same  'anonymously' and, indeed keep those details, away.
>>>> it is not frigin hard dude, where did Yyou get the idea, that is not
>>>> hard to move a user around boxes :P
>>>>  and rename them, etc etc etc, always change ipv6 tunnels... there is
>>>> somany ways, you obv have not ran a dedicated server in a company
>>>> environment coz boi, they hide nets on legit hostin now, legit apparently*
>>>> companies...and they do it using those simple means, and, even show logs of
>>>> them 'removing and deleting' files of the apprent 'bad user' , this is, a
>>>> whole different level than even needing to deal with cops.. so, you are
>>>> scared too much by laws  wich can be smokescreened.
>>>> Run a dedis, or simply ask a admin, howmany abuse they get, and howmany
>>>> users they actually rm ;)
>>>> you would want this service, on your vps ?
>>>> i surely wouldnt,. i know, with me, if i offer anon, you stay damn anon,
>>>> if you bring cops to MY HOUSE, then i may have to try and, simply keep my
>>>> darn data secure ey ?
>>>> how about that ?
>>>> simple methods, defeat simple plans benji.
>>>> xd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 29 September 2011 22:53, Benji <me@...ji.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes they do. If you buy a server in America for example, even if you
>>>>> are located in Russia, they are required by federal law to hand over your
>>>>> details wherever you may reside. I dont know where you've obtained this idea
>>>>> that they can't.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Just because something is advertised as 'anonymous' doesnt mean it's
>>>>> 'so anonymous you can break the law' and anyone using a EU/US-related
>>>>> country to do this is either stupid or naive.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:50 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> They advertised as anonymous VPN to 'everyone'.
>>>>>> Then, that would mean, especially NOT locally, thats something wich is
>>>>>> also, subject to federal laws though so, in its own country, the provider
>>>>>> may have to, nomatter whats advertised, BUT outside of country customers,
>>>>>> should not be handed over.
>>>>>> isp's here dont do it, and havent, for like 20 yrs, they also do not
>>>>>> take down people,issue nor execute other peoples 'takedown orders', there is
>>>>>> many reasons for this but basically, they loose money from it.
>>>>>> Anyhow, in UK, you maybe right, but outside of there, then, they
>>>>>> should have maybe not advertised as anononymous vpn services for everyone
>>>>>> and anyone. thats obvious crap we know now.
>>>>>> anyhow, cheers,
>>>>>> xd
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  On 29 September 2011 22:45, Benji <me@...ji.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Im sorry, why is it 'worrying' that a vpn provider that was a UK
>>>>>>> business and was located in the UK, is subject to UK law?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Darren Martyn <
>>>>>>> d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, I hope this does not fail to send.
>>>>>>>> The reasoning behind the "Pure Elite" recruitment channel was A: to
>>>>>>>> recruit some talented people (and, by all accounts, there were some talented
>>>>>>>> programmers there) and B: development and idle talk. Now more interesting
>>>>>>>> was the reasoning behind the name - by putting the developers and coders and
>>>>>>>> potential recruits in a channel named "Pure Elite", it was essentially an
>>>>>>>> ego boost for the new guys, made them feel valued, etc, when in fact most
>>>>>>>> were but pawns to be used (IMHO).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This co-operation between VPN providers and LEO, while being nothing
>>>>>>>> new - remember how hushmail caved in - is indeed worrying for those of us
>>>>>>>> who are privacy advocates as well as security researchers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On a more direct note, Laurelei, do not presume that you know all
>>>>>>>> there is to know about them. Doing so would be foolish. (Now don't go
>>>>>>>> assuming that I hate you, I bear you bugger all ill-will, etc).
>>>>>>>> Good day.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 5:44 AM, Laurelai Storm <
>>>>>>>> laurelai@...echan.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Its all good dude. What really concerns me is that vpn providers
>>>>>>>>> might give over logs to oppressive regemes. TOR is starting to look better
>>>>>>>>> and better.
>>>>>>>>>  On Sep 27, 2011 11:40 PM, "GloW - XD" <doomxd@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > never did... was only for one buttcheek kid that i was alittle
>>>>>>>>> pissed and
>>>>>>>>> > thinking things wich, prolly were wrong at the time...
>>>>>>>>> > I am adult enough to apologise for what happened back then, and
>>>>>>>>> hopefully it
>>>>>>>>> > is just, cool.
>>>>>>>>> > :)
>>>>>>>>> > cheers, your loved by many, you just have many trollers to :sp
>>>>>>>>> > take care ,
>>>>>>>>> > xd
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > On 28 September 2011 14:32, Laurelai Storm <
>>>>>>>>> laurelai@...echan.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >> Im suprised, someone on the internet who *doesn't * hate me :p
>>>>>>>>> >> On Sep 27, 2011 11:29 PM, "GloW - XD" <doomxd@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> > Hello Laurelai ,
>>>>>>>>> >> > Oh i agree it is still a terrible precedent to be set.. I dont
>>>>>>>>> even know
>>>>>>>>> >> > where, legally, i stand anymore...
>>>>>>>>> >> > It is rather disturbing, nomatter WHO it was laurela.
>>>>>>>>> >> > I am all for the hatred against the VPN provs, and this is not
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> >> > happening here, and i made a BIG statement about this, and
>>>>>>>>> privacy, in my
>>>>>>>>> >> > channel on efnet, first as i saw it.
>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> > Then saw a torrentfreak feed,of someone who was an owner of a
>>>>>>>>> huge
>>>>>>>>> >> torrent
>>>>>>>>> >> > site, was handed to authorities, not by the hoster, no... but
>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>> >> > frigging payment handler, ie paypal or alertpay most likely.
>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> > This is not good, it makes a grey could now over what is
>>>>>>>>> 'anon' and what
>>>>>>>>> >> > isnt. and thats a bad thing for us all.
>>>>>>>>> >> > To much fraud is causing this, thats plain and simple.Abusing
>>>>>>>>> places like
>>>>>>>>> >> > Sony, and, major banks, only make the authorities turn to
>>>>>>>>> politics, whom
>>>>>>>>> >> in
>>>>>>>>> >> > turn can bully with federal and state laws of ANY country, i
>>>>>>>>> think this
>>>>>>>>> >> is
>>>>>>>>> >> > the dangerous part wich is affecting lulzsec members or
>>>>>>>>> whoever was apart
>>>>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>>>>> >> > it, and, i mean efnet is no recruiting grounds for decent
>>>>>>>>> hkrs.
>>>>>>>>> >> > Simple as that, you know it, maybe thru word of mouth ok, but
>>>>>>>>> not alone
>>>>>>>>> >> by
>>>>>>>>> >> > being in channels but that network, is one federal hideout
>>>>>>>>> now..and, that
>>>>>>>>> >> is
>>>>>>>>> >> > every channel, if it is not being spied (yea they have a
>>>>>>>>> module
>>>>>>>>> >> > m_spychannel.c or similar, wich, they actually had without
>>>>>>>>> realising,
>>>>>>>>> >> asked
>>>>>>>>> >> > a friend, to code for them.
>>>>>>>>> >> > This was rejected by me/her,but i believe they have the module
>>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>>> >> now.
>>>>>>>>> >> > So, what was to stop them adding theyre own hidden spy mode to
>>>>>>>>> it :s look
>>>>>>>>> >> at
>>>>>>>>> >> > what they did to my old channel #haqnet, they introduced
>>>>>>>>> drinemon and a
>>>>>>>>> >> > bunch of other things, when it could have been simply worked
>>>>>>>>> out with
>>>>>>>>> >> > words.. but anyhow, i will not brood on the past, i hope this
>>>>>>>>> is mutual
>>>>>>>>> >> > Laurelai, I have nothing bad to say about you, and in turn,
>>>>>>>>> expect the
>>>>>>>>> >> same.
>>>>>>>>> >> > Respect for respect dear.
>>>>>>>>> >> > I do agree with you about the situation and, as you can see,
>>>>>>>>> am not
>>>>>>>>> >> holding
>>>>>>>>> >> > 9undisclosed) crappy things wich happened along time ago, over
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> >> idiotic
>>>>>>>>> >> > kid, on efnet, whom now i know you do not associate with. So,
>>>>>>>>> i want
>>>>>>>>> >> that,
>>>>>>>>> >> > to be laid rest now.. please.
>>>>>>>>> >> > And, we can only hope that the greater common sense will
>>>>>>>>> prevail and
>>>>>>>>> >> > hopefully, places will be forced to proove anonymity in some
>>>>>>>>> way, wether
>>>>>>>>> >> > that be by showing people email interaction with requester's
>>>>>>>>> of peoples
>>>>>>>>> >> > info, or anything simple even, wich would be then a standard
>>>>>>>>> for VPN, I
>>>>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>>>>> >> > not use them but, if i bought anonymous vpn, id expect exactly
>>>>>>>>> >> that,without
>>>>>>>>> >> > political interaction and grey areas about who and what is now
>>>>>>>>> legal and
>>>>>>>>> >> not
>>>>>>>>> >> > legal on the internet, on chatrooms, and on even websites.
>>>>>>>>> >> > ok, thats plenty, cheers!
>>>>>>>>> >> > xd
>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> > On 28 September 2011 13:41, Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> On 9/27/2011 10:10 PM, sandeep k wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> Lolz members was really insane ,i m not why to use that crapy
>>>>>>>>> hma.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> On Sep 27, 2011 8:36 PM, "Ferenc Kovacs" <tyra3l@...il.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > yeah, and usually the same goes for calling others "kids"
>>>>>>>>> ;)
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:30 PM, GloW - XD <
>>>>>>>>> doomxd@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> #pure-elite , rofl... yes indeed :P
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> hehe... nice story tho...funny about the elite channel
>>>>>>>>> thing... why
>>>>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>>>>> >> >> ppl
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> tag themselves as elite? usually when they are not...
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> ohwell, thats efnut :s (irc sucks)
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> xd
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> On 27 September 2011 19:03, Darren Martyn
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> <d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Hope this sends correctly, new email client and all...
>>>>>>>>> But seeing as
>>>>>>>>> >> it
>>>>>>>>> >> >> is
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> an international investigation many people have been
>>>>>>>>> bending over
>>>>>>>>> >> >> backwards
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> to assist LEO on this. HMA and perfect privacy were the
>>>>>>>>> VPN's of
>>>>>>>>> >> choice
>>>>>>>>> >> >> for
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> them it would appear, oh, and he was part of the
>>>>>>>>> #pure-elite channel
>>>>>>>>> >> on
>>>>>>>>> >> >> that
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> IRC server, and hence, considered by LEO and others as
>>>>>>>>> "Part of
>>>>>>>>> >> >> LulzSec".
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> TL;DR, this is nothing new.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Laurelai Storm <
>>>>>>>>> >> laurelai@...echan.org
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> And the guy wasnt even a part of lulzsec
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> On Sep 26, 2011 10:37 PM, "Jeffrey Walton" <
>>>>>>>>> noloader@...il.com>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Ivan . <
>>>>>>>>> ivanhec@...il.com>
>>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.h-online.com/security/news/item/VPN-provider-helped-track-down-alleged-LulzSec-member-1349666.html
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> > Though HMA claims they complied with a court order, it
>>>>>>>>> looks as
>>>>>>>>> >> if
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> > they facilitated a law enforcement request. The US and
>>>>>>>>> the FBI
>>>>>>>>> >> have
>>>>>>>>> >> >> no
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> > jurisdiction in the UK.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> > Jeff
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> > Charter:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> Charter:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Charter:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> Charter:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > --
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > Ferenc Kovács
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > Charter:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> Charter:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >From my understanding they used the channel as a possible
>>>>>>>>> recruitment
>>>>>>>>> >> >> ground, though only 6 people were officially a part of
>>>>>>>>> lulzsec , i find
>>>>>>>>> >> it
>>>>>>>>> >> >> disturbing that law enforcement considers being in an irc
>>>>>>>>> channel
>>>>>>>>> >> tantamount
>>>>>>>>> >> >> to being a part of lulzsec.
>>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> Charter:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>
>

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