Message-ID: <CAExQ7uJNFgARFS7gyY9Yzh6RkbshJ6cYDEesiqGUB2RYcu7X9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:50:31 -0500
From: adam <adam@...sy.net>
To: Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: VPN providers and any providers in general...

"That actually depends on the situation, contempt can be criminal. And
frankly if you refuse a court order for information like that, the LE
officers will just seize it by gunpoint legally, then arrest you."

I'm curious as to what you think would cause contempt to be a criminal
offense, especially in that example.

Secondly, without the appropriate warrant - they couldn't legally take
anything. If they disregarded that truth and did so anyway, they'd open
themselves up to a pretty big lawsuit for violating that individual's civil
rights as well as due process. Not to mention, anything found would likely
end up being inadmissible because it was obtained illegally.

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org> wrote:

>  On 10/4/2011 6:35 PM, adam wrote:
>
> "(Option 3 - the guy heads downtown on a contempt of court charge -
> happens so
> rarely that it's basically a hypothetical)."
>
>  You do realize that (at least in the US) - contempt is *not* a criminal
> offense, don't you?
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:05 PM, <Valdis.Kletnieks@...edu> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 03:15:02 EDT, Jeffrey Walton said:
>> > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 3:06 AM, Ferenc Kovacs <tyra3l@...il.com> wrote:
>>
>>  > > As I mentioned before it is hard to expect that a VPN provider will
>> > > risk his company for your $11.52/month, and maybe they would try it
>> > > for some lesser case, but what Lulsec did was grant, so I'm not
>> > > surprised that they bent.
>> >
>> > "Alleged"
>>
>>  Yes. So?  In most jurisdictions, "alledged" and "probable cause" is
>> sufficient
>> to get a court to sign off on a subpoena and/or warrants.
>>
>> "Dear Judge:  On Aug 23, a hacker using the handle "JustFellOutOfTree" did
>> violate Section N, Clause X.Y of the criminal code by hacking into
>> BigStore.com.  The connection was traced back to the provider VPNs-R-Us.
>>  We
>> would like a court order requesting VPNs-R-Us to provide any and all
>> information they may have regarding this user".
>>
>> That will usually do it (after bulked up to about 3 pages with legalese
>> and
>> dotting the t's and crossing the i's).
>>
>> The next morning, the manager at VPNs-R-Us gets to his office, and finds
>> two guys with guns and a signed piece of paper.  At which point one of two
>> things will happen:
>>
>> 1) the guy rolls and gives up all the info.
>> 2) the guy calls his lawyer and makes sure that he gives up all the
>> required info,
>> and not one byte more.
>>
>> (Option 3 - the guy heads downtown on a contempt of court charge - happens
>> so
>> rarely that it's basically a hypothetical).
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>
>  That actually depends on the situation, contempt can be criminal. And
> frankly if you refuse a court order for information like that, the LE
> officers will just seize it by gunpoint legally, then arrest you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>

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