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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 18:16:38 +0000
From: "Nicholas Lemonias." <lem.nikolas@...glemail.com>
To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: Fwd: Google vulnerabilities with PoC

Google is a great service, but according to our proof of concepts (images,
poc's, codes) presented to Softpedia, and verified
by a couple of recognised experts including OWASP - that was a serious
vulnerability.

Now you can say whatever you like, and argue about it. You can argue about
the impact and whatsoever , but that's not the way to deal with security
issues.




On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Nicholas Lemonias. <
lem.nikolas@...glemail.com> wrote:

> Security vulnerabilities need to be published and reported. That's the
> spirit.
>
> Attacking the researcher, won't make it go away.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Julius Kivimäki <
> julius.kivimaki@...il.com> wrote:
>
>> Dude, seriously. Just stop.
>>
>>
>> 2014-03-14 20:02 GMT+02:00 Nicholas Lemonias. <lem.nikolas@...glemail.com
>> >:
>>
>> You can't even find a cross site scripting on google.
>>>
>>> Find a vuln on Google seems like a dream to some script kiddies.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Nicholas Lemonias. <
>>> lem.nikolas@...glemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The full-disclosure mailing list has really changed. It's full of
>>>> lamers nowdays aiming high.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Nicholas Lemonias. <
>>>> lem.nikolas@...glemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Says the script kiddie... Beg for some publicity. My customers are
>>>>> FTSE 100.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: Nicholas Lemonias. <lem.nikolas@...glemail.com>
>>>>>  Date: Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 5:58 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: Google vulnerabilities with PoC
>>>>> To: antisnatchor <antisnatchor@...il.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Says the script kiddie... Beg for some publicity. My customers are
>>>>> FTSE 100.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 5:55 PM, antisnatchor <antisnatchor@...il.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL you're hopeless.
>>>>>> Good luck with your business. Brave customers!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> antisnatchor
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nicholas Lemonias. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People can read the report if they like. Can't you even do basic
>>>>>> things like reading a vulnerability report?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can't you see that the advisory is about writing arbitrary files. If
>>>>>> I was your boss I would fire you.
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> From: Nicholas Lemonias. <lem.nikolas@...glemail.com>
>>>>>> Date: Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 5:43 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Google vulnerabilities with PoC
>>>>>> To: Mario Vilas <mvilas@...il.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People can read the report if they like. Can't you even do basic
>>>>>> things like reading a vulnerability report?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can't you see that the advisory is about writing arbitrary files. If
>>>>>> I was your boss I would fire you, with a good kick outta the door.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Mario Vilas <mvilas@...il.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Nicholas Lemonias. <
>>>>>>> lem.nikolas@...glemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jerome of Mcafee has made a very valid point on
>>>>>>>> revisiting  separation of duties in this security instance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Happy to see more professionals with some skills.  Some others have
>>>>>>>> also mentioned the feasibility for Denial of Service attacks. Remote code
>>>>>>>> execution by Social Engineering is also a prominent scenario.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, people have been pointing out exactly the opposite. But if
>>>>>>> you insist on believing you can DoS an EC2 by uploading files, good luck to
>>>>>>> you then...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you can't tell that that is a vulnerability (probably coming
>>>>>>>> from a bunch of CEH's), I feel sorry for those consultants.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're the only one throwing around certifications here. I can no
>>>>>>> longer tell if you're being serious or this is a massive prank.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nicholas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Nicholas Lemonias. <
>>>>>>>> lem.nikolas@...glemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are on a different level perhaps. We do certainly disagree on
>>>>>>>>> those points.
>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't hire you as a consultant, if you can't tell if that is
>>>>>>>>> a valid vulnerability..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Nicholas Lemonias.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Mario Vilas <mvilas@...il.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But do you have all the required EH certifications? Try this one
>>>>>>>>>> from the Institute for
>>>>>>>>>> Certified Application Security Specialists:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.asscert.com/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 7:41 AM, Nicholas Lemonias. <
>>>>>>>>>> lem.nikolas@...glemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Michal,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We are just trying to improve Google's security and contribute
>>>>>>>>>>> to the research community after all. If you are still on EFNet give me a
>>>>>>>>>>> shout some time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  We have done so and consulted to hundreds of clients including
>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft, Nokia, Adobe and some of the world's biggest corporations. We
>>>>>>>>>>> are also strict supporters of the ACM code of conduct.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Nicholas Lemonias.
>>>>>>>>>>> AISec
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 6:29 AM, Nicholas Lemonias. <
>>>>>>>>>>> lem.nikolas@...glemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Jerome,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for agreeing on access control, and separation of
>>>>>>>>>>>> duties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However successful exploitation permits arbitrary write() of
>>>>>>>>>>>> any file of choice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I could release an exploit code in C Sharp or Python that
>>>>>>>>>>>> permits multiple file uploads of any file/types, if the Google security
>>>>>>>>>>>> team feels that this would be necessary. This is unpaid work, so we are
>>>>>>>>>>>> not so keen on that job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Jerome Athias <
>>>>>>>>>>>> athiasjerome@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I concur that we are mainly discussing a terminology problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the context of a Penetration Test or WAPT, this is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reporting this finding makes sense in this context.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a professional, you would have to explain if/how this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> finding is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Weakness*, a Violation (/Regulations, Compliance, Policies or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Requirements[1])
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I would say Weakness + Exposure = Vulnerability.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vulnerability +
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exploitability (PoC) = Confirmed Vulnerability that needs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Business
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Impact and Risk Analysis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I would probably have reported this Finding as a Weakness
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vulnerability. See: OWASP, WASC-TC, CWE), explaining that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best Practice (your OWASP link and Cheat Sheets), and even if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mitigative/compensative security controls (Ref Orange Book),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> security
>>>>>>>>>>>>> controls like white listing (or at least black listing. see
>>>>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ESAPI) should be 1) part of the [1]security requirements of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> proper
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SDLC (Build security in) as per Defense-in-Depth security
>>>>>>>>>>>>> principles
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and 2) used and implemented correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NB: A simple Threat Model (i.e. list of CAPEC) would be a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>>> support to your report
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This would help to evaluate/measure the risk (e.g. CVSS).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Helping the decision/actions around this risk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PS: interestingly, in this case, I'm not sure that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Separation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Duties security principle was applied correctly by Google in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> term of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Risk Acceptance (which could be another Finding)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in few words, be careful with the terminology. (don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> always say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vulnerability like the media say hacker, see RFC1392) Use a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CWE ID
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (e.g. CWE-434, CWE-183, CWE-184 vs. CWE-616)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My 2 bitcents
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry if it is not edible :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Happy Hacking!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /JA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/athiasjerome/XORCISM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2014-03-14 7:19 GMT+03:00 Michal Zalewski <lcamtuf@...edump.cx
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Nicholas,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I remember my early years in the infosec community - and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sadly, so do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > some of the more seasoned readers of this list :-) Back
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > thought that the only thing that mattered is the ability to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find bugs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > But after some 18 years in the industry, I now know that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > even more important and elusive skill.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > That skill boils down to having a robust mental model of what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > constitutes a security flaw - and being able to explain your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > to others in a precise and internally consistent manner that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinces
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > others to act. We need this because the security of a system
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > usefully described using abstract terms: even the academic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > ultimately boil down to saying "the system is secure if it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > the things we *really* don't want it to do".
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > In this spirit, the term "vulnerability" is generally
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reserved for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > behaviors that meet all of the following criteria:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > 1) The behavior must have negative consequences for at least
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > the legitimate stakeholders (users, service owners, etc),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > 2) The consequences must be widely seen as unexpected and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unacceptable,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > 3) There must be a realistic chance of such a negative
>>>>>>>>>>>>> outcome,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > 4) The behavior must introduce substantial new risks that go
>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > the previously accepted trade-offs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > If we don't have that, we usually don't have a case, no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter how
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > clever the bug is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Cheers (and happy hunting!),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > /mz
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Charter:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> "There's a reason we separate military and the police: one fights
>>>>>>>>>> the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When
>>>>>>>>>> the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the
>>>>>>>>>> people."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> "There's a reason we separate military and the police: one fights
>>>>>>> the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When
>>>>>>> the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the
>>>>>>> people."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Michele
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>

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