linux-ext4 - Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Message-ID: <20090824212518.GF29763@elf.ucw.cz>
Date:	Mon, 24 Aug 2009 23:25:19 +0200
From:	Pavel Machek <pavel@....cz>
To:	Ric Wheeler <rwheeler@...hat.com>
Cc:	Theodore Tso <tytso@....edu>, Florian Weimer <fweimer@....de>,
	Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@....de>,
	Rob Landley <rob@...dley.net>,
	kernel list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...l.org>, mtk.manpages@...il.com,
	rdunlap@...otime.net, linux-doc@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-ext4@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is
	possible

Hi!

>> I can reproduce data loss with ext3 on flashcard in about 40
>> seconds. I'd not call that "odd event". It would be nice to handle
>> that, but that is hard. So ... can we at least get that documented
>> please?
>>   
>
> Part of documenting best practices is to put down very specific things  
> that do/don't work. What I worry about is producing too much detail to  
> be of use for real end users.

Well, I was trying to write for kernel audience. Someone can turn that
into nice end-user manual.

> I have to admit that I have not paid enough attention to this specifics  
> of your ext3 + flash card issue - is it the ftl stuff doing out of order  
> IO's? 

The problem is that flash cards destroy whole erase block on unplug,
and ext3 can't cope with that.

>> _All_ flash cards (MMC, USB, SD) had the problems. You don't need to
>> get clear grasp on trends. Those cards just don't meet ext3
>> expectations, and if you pull them, you get data loss.
>>   
> Pull them even after an unmount, or pull them hot?

Pull them hot.

[Some people try -osync to avoid data loss on flash cards... that will
not do the trick. Flashcard will still kill the eraseblock.]

>>> Nothing is perfect. It is still a trade off between storage 
>>> utilization  (how much storage we give users for say 5 2TB drives), 
>>> performance and  costs (throw away any disks over 2 years old?).
>>>     
>>
>> "Nothing is perfect"?! That's design decision/problem in raid5/ext3. I
>> believe that should be at least documented. (And understand why ZFS is
>> interesting thing).
>>   
> Your statement is overly broad - ext3 on a commercial RAID array that  
> does RAID5 or RAID6, etc has no issues that I know of.

If your commercial RAID array is battery backed, maybe. But I was
talking Linux MD here.

>> And I still use my zaurus with crappy DRAM.
>>
>> I would not trust raid5 array with my data, for multiple
>> reasons. The fact that degraded raid5 breaks ext3 assumptions should
>> really be documented.
>
> Again, you say RAID5 without enough specifics.  Are you pointing just at  
> MD RAID5 on S-ATA? Hardware RAID cards? A specific commercial RAID5 
> vendor?

Degraded MD RAID5 on anything, including SATA, and including
hypothetical "perfect disk".

>> The papers show failures in "once a year" range. I have "twice a
>> minute" failure scenario with flashdisks.
>>
>> Not sure how often "degraded raid5 breaks ext3 atomicity" would bite,
>> but I bet it would be on "once a day" scale.
>>
>> We should document those.
>
> Documentation is fine with sufficient, hard data....

Degraded MD RAID5 does not work by design; whole stripe will be
damaged on powerfail or reset or kernel bug, and ext3 can not cope
with that kind of damage. [I don't see why statistics should be
neccessary for that; the same way we don't need statistics to see that
ext2 needs fsck after powerfail.]
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-ext4" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html