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Date:	Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:37:12 -0400
From:	Ric Wheeler <rwheeler@...hat.com>
To:	Pavel Machek <pavel@....cz>
CC:	Theodore Tso <tytso@....edu>, Florian Weimer <fweimer@....de>,
	Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@....de>,
	Rob Landley <rob@...dley.net>,
	kernel list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...l.org>, mtk.manpages@...il.com,
	rdunlap@...otime.net, linux-doc@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-ext4@...r.kernel.org, corbet@....net
Subject: Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is
 possible

On 08/25/2009 05:42 AM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> On Mon 2009-08-24 20:08:42, Theodore Tso wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 01:00:36AM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>> Then to answer your question... ext2. You expect to run fsck after
>>> unclean shutdown, and you expect to have to solve some problems with
>>> it. So the way ext2 deals with the flash media actually matches what
>>> the user expects. (*)
>>
>> But if the 256k hole is in data blocks, fsck won't find a problem,
>> even with ext2.
>
> True.
>
>> And if the 256k hole is the inode table, you will *still* suffer
>> massive data loss.  Fsck will tell you how badly screwed you are, but
>> it doesn't "fix" the disk; most users don't consider questions of the
>> form "directory entry<precious-thesis-data>  points to trashed inode,
>> may I delete directory entry?" as being terribly helpful.  :-/
>
> Well it will fix the disk in the end. And no, "directory entry
> <precious-thesis-data>  points to trashed inode, may I delete directory
> entry?" is not _terribly_ helpful, but it is slightly helpful and
> people actually expect that from ext2.
>
>> Maybe this came as a surprise to you, but anyone who has used a
>> compact flash in a digital camera knows that you ***have*** to wait
>> until the led has gone out before trying to eject the flash card.  I
>> remember seeing all sorts of horror stories from professional
>> photographers about how they lost an important wedding's day worth of
>> pictures with the attendant commercial loss, on various digital
>> photography forums.  It tends to be the sort of mistake that digital
>> photographers only make once.
>
> It actually comes as surprise to me. Actually yes and no. I know that
> digital cameras use VFAT, so pulling CF card out of it may do bad
> thing, unless I run fsck.vfat afterwards. If digital camera was using
> ext3, I'd expect it to be safely pullable at any time.
>
> Will IBM microdrive do any difference there?
>
> Anyway, it was not known to me. Rather than claiming "everyone knows"
> (when clearly very few people really understand all the details), can
> we simply document that?
> 									Pavel

I really think that the expectation that all OS's (windows, mac, even your ipod) 
all teach you not to hot unplug a device with any file system. Users have an 
"eject" or "safe unload" in windows, your iPod tells you not to power off or 
disconnect, etc.

I don't object to making that general statement - "Don't hot unplug a device 
with an active file system or actively used raw device" - but would object to 
the overly general statement about ext3 not working on flash, RAID5 not working, 
etc...

ric



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