linux-ext4 - Re: [PATCH, RFC 0/3] Introduce new O_HOT and O

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Message-ID: <4F96BFFD.8090801@gmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:00:13 -0400
From:	KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@...il.com>
To:	Nick Piggin <npiggin@...il.com>
CC:	James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...senpartnership.com>,
	KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@...il.com>,
	Ted Ts'o <tytso@....edu>, Lukas Czerner <lczerner@...hat.com>,
	Boaz Harrosh <bharrosh@...asas.com>,
	linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org,
	Ext4 Developers List <linux-ext4@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-mm@...ck.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH, RFC 0/3] Introduce new O_HOT and O_COLD flags

(4/24/12 2:18 AM), Nick Piggin wrote:
> On 23 April 2012 21:47, Nick Piggin<npiggin@...il.com>  wrote:
>> On 23 April 2012 18:23, James Bottomley
>
>>> Experience has taught me to be wary of fine grained hints: they tend to
>>> be more trouble than they're worth (the definitions are either
>>> inaccurate or so tediously precise that no-one can be bothered to read
>>> them).  A small set of broad hints is usually more useable than a huge
>>> set of fine grained ones, so from that point of view, I like the
>>> O_HOT/O_COLD ones.
>>
>> So long as the implementations can be sufficiently general that large majority
>> of "reasonable" application of the flags does not result in a slowdown, perhaps.
>>
>> But while defining the API, you have to think about these things and not
>> just dismiss them completely.
>>
>> Read vs write can be very important for caches and tiers, same for
>> random/linear,
>> latency constraints, etc. These things aren't exactly a huge unwieldy matrix. We
>> already have similar concepts in fadvise and such.
>
> I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea as such. But experience
> has taught me that if you define an API before having much
> experience of the implementation and its users, and without
> being able to write meaningful documentation for it, then it's
> going to be a bad API.
>
> So rather than pushing through these flags first, I think it would
> be better to actually do implementation work, and get some
> benchmarks (if not real apps) and have something working
> like that before turning anything into an API.

Fully agreed.

I _guess_ O_COLD has an enough real world usefullness because a backup operation
makes a lot of "write once read never" inodes. Moreover it doesn't have a system wide
side effect.

In the other hands, I don't imagine how O_HOT works yet. Beccause of, many apps want
to run faster than other apps and it definitely don't work _if_ all applications turn on
O_HOT for every open operations. So, I'm not sure why apps don't do such intentional
abuse yet.

So, we might need some API design discussions.

--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-ext4" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html