linux-ext4 - Re: [man-pages RFC PATCH v4] statx, inode: document the new STATX_INO

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Date:   Wed, 07 Sep 2022 10:05:05 -0400
From:   Jeff Layton <jlayton@...nel.org>
To:     Trond Myklebust <trondmy@...merspace.com>,
        "bfields@...ldses.org" <bfields@...ldses.org>
Cc:     "zohar@...ux.ibm.com" <zohar@...ux.ibm.com>,
        "djwong@...nel.org" <djwong@...nel.org>,
        "xiubli@...hat.com" <xiubli@...hat.com>,
        "brauner@...nel.org" <brauner@...nel.org>,
        "neilb@...e.de" <neilb@...e.de>,
        "linux-api@...r.kernel.org" <linux-api@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linux-xfs@...r.kernel.org" <linux-xfs@...r.kernel.org>,
        "david@...morbit.com" <david@...morbit.com>,
        "fweimer@...hat.com" <fweimer@...hat.com>,
        "linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        "chuck.lever@...cle.com" <chuck.lever@...cle.com>,
        "linux-man@...r.kernel.org" <linux-man@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linux-nfs@...r.kernel.org" <linux-nfs@...r.kernel.org>,
        "tytso@....edu" <tytso@....edu>,
        "viro@...iv.linux.org.uk" <viro@...iv.linux.org.uk>,
        "jack@...e.cz" <jack@...e.cz>,
        "linux-ext4@...r.kernel.org" <linux-ext4@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linux-btrfs@...r.kernel.org" <linux-btrfs@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org>,
        "lczerner@...hat.com" <lczerner@...hat.com>,
        "adilger.kernel@...ger.ca" <adilger.kernel@...ger.ca>,
        "ceph-devel@...r.kernel.org" <ceph-devel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [man-pages RFC PATCH v4] statx, inode: document the new
 STATX_INO_VERSION field

On Wed, 2022-09-07 at 13:55 +0000, Trond Myklebust wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-09-07 at 09:12 -0400, Jeff Layton wrote:
> > On Wed, 2022-09-07 at 08:52 -0400, J. Bruce Fields wrote:
> > > On Wed, Sep 07, 2022 at 08:47:20AM -0400, Jeff Layton wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 2022-09-07 at 21:37 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, 07 Sep 2022, Jeff Layton wrote:
> > > > > > +The change to \fIstatx.stx_ino_version\fP is not atomic with
> > > > > > respect to the
> > > > > > +other changes in the inode. On a write, for instance, the
> > > > > > i_version it usually
> > > > > > +incremented before the data is copied into the pagecache.
> > > > > > Therefore it is
> > > > > > +possible to see a new i_version value while a read still
> > > > > > shows the old data.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Doesn't that make the value useless?
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > No, I don't think so. It's only really useful for comparing to an
> > > > older
> > > > sample anyway. If you do "statx; read; statx" and the value
> > > > hasn't
> > > > changed, then you know that things are stable. 
> > > 
> > > I don't see how that helps.  It's still possible to get:
> > > 
> > >                 reader          writer
> > >                 ------          ------
> > >                                 i_version++
> > >                 statx
> > >                 read
> > >                 statx
> > >                                 update page cache
> > > 
> > > right?
> > > 
> > 
> > Yeah, I suppose so -- the statx wouldn't necessitate any locking. In
> > that case, maybe this is useless then other than for testing purposes
> > and userland NFS servers.
> > 
> > Would it be better to not consume a statx field with this if so? What
> > could we use as an alternate interface? ioctl? Some sort of global
> > virtual xattr? It does need to be something per-inode.
> 
> I don't see how a non-atomic change attribute is remotely useful even
> for NFS.
> 
> The main problem is not so much the above (although NFS clients are
> vulnerable to that too) but the behaviour w.r.t. directory changes.
> 
> If the server can't guarantee that file/directory/... creation and
> unlink are atomically recorded with change attribute updates, then the
> client has to always assume that the server is lying, and that it has
> to revalidate all its caches anyway. Cue endless readdir/lookup/getattr
> requests after each and every directory modification in order to check
> that some other client didn't also sneak in a change of their own.
> 

We generally hold the parent dir's inode->i_rwsem exclusively over most
important directory changes, and the times/i_version are also updated
while holding it. What we don't do is serialize reads of this value vs.
the i_rwsem, so you could see new directory contents alongside an old
i_version. Maybe we should be taking it for read when we query it on a
directory?

Achieving atomicity with file writes though is another matter entirely.
I'm not sure that's even doable or how to approach it if so.
Suggestions?
-- 
Jeff Layton <jlayton@...nel.org>