linux-ext4 - Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] extsize and forcealign design in filesystems for atomic writes

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Message-ID: <Z6J0uZdSqv3gJEbA@dread.disaster.area>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2025 07:12:41 +1100
From: Dave Chinner <david@...morbit.com>
To: John Garry <john.g.garry@...cle.com>
Cc: Ojaswin Mujoo <ojaswin@...ux.ibm.com>,
	lsf-pc@...ts.linux-foundation.org, linux-xfs@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org, djwong@...nel.org,
	dchinner@...hat.com, hch@....de, ritesh.list@...il.com,
	jack@...e.cz, tytso@....edu, linux-ext4@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] extsize and forcealign design in filesystems
 for atomic writes

On Tue, Feb 04, 2025 at 12:20:25PM +0000, John Garry wrote:
> On 01/02/2025 07:12, Ojaswin Mujoo wrote:
> 
> Hi Ojaswin,
> 
> > > For my test case, I am trying 16K atomic writes with 4K FS block size, so I
> > > expect the software fallback to not kick in often after running the system
> > > for a while (as eventually we will get an aligned allocations). I am
> > > concerned of prospect of heavily fragmented files, though.
> > Yes that's true, if the FS is up long enough there is bound to be
> > fragmentation eventually which might make it harder for extsize to
> > get the blocks.
> > 
> > With software fallback, there's again the point that many FSes will need
> > some sort of COW/exchange_range support before they can support anything
> > like that.
> > 
> > Although I;ve not looked at what it will take to add that to
> > ext4 but I'm assuming it will not be trivial at all.
> 
> Sure, but then again you may not have issues with getting forcealign support
> accepted for ext4. However, I would have thought that bigalloc was good
> enough to use initially.
> 
> > 
> > > > I agree that forcealign is not the only way we can have atomic writes
> > > > work but I do feel there is value in having forcealign for FSes and
> > > > hence we should have a discussion around it so we can get the interface
> > > > right.
> > > > 
> > > I thought that the interface for forcealign according to the candidate xfs
> > > implementation was quite straightforward. no?
> > As mentioned in the original proposal, there are still a open problems
> > around extsize and forcealign.
> > 
> > - The allocation and deallocation semantics are not completely clear to
> > 	me for example we allow operations like unaligned punch_hole but not
> > 	unaligned insert and collapse range, and I couldn't see that
> > 	documented anywhere.
> 
> For xfs, we were imposing the same restrictions as which we have for
> rtextsize > 1.
> 
> If you check the following:
> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-xfs/20240813163638.3751939-9-john.g.garry@oracle.com/
> 
> You can see how the large allocunit value is affected by forcealign, and
> then check callers of xfs_is_falloc_aligned() -> xfs_inode_alloc_unitsize()
> to see how this affects some fallocate modes.
> 
> > 
> > - There are challenges in extsize with delayed allocation as well as how
> > 	the tooling should handle forcealigned inodes.
> 
> Yeah, maybe. I was only testing my xfs forcealign solution for dio (and no
> delayed alloc).

XFS turns off delalloc when extsize hints are set. See
xfs_buffered_write_iomap_begin() - it starts with:

	/* we can't use delayed allocations when using extent size hints */
        if (xfs_get_extsz_hint(ip))
                return xfs_direct_write_iomap_begin(inode, offset, count,
                                flags, iomap, srcmap);

and so it treats the allocation like a direct IO write and so
force-align should work with buffered writes as expected.

This delalloc constraint is a historic relic in XFS - now that we
use unwritten extents for delalloc we -could- use delalloc with
extsize hints; it just requires the delalloc extents to be aligned
to extsize hints.

-Dave.
-- 
Dave Chinner
david@...morbit.com