Message-ID: <CAOQ4uxiFp2Keo-qg4Jj+iJ3oE83x8Xph8oQruC-WyeOUHfz-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 08:10:51 +0200
From: Amir Goldstein <amir73il@...il.com>
To: "Darrick J. Wong" <djwong@...nel.org>
Cc: "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@....edu>, linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org>, John@...ves.net, 
	bernd@...ernd.com, miklos@...redi.hu, joannelkoong@...il.com, 
	Josef Bacik <josef@...icpanda.com>, linux-ext4 <linux-ext4@...r.kernel.org>, 
	Allison Karlitskaya <lis@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC[RAP]] fuse: use fs-iomap for better performance so we can
 containerize ext4

On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 5:20 AM Darrick J. Wong <djwong@...nel.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 10:56:29AM -0100, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> > +Allison Karlitskaya
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 12:00:26PM -0700, Darrick J. Wong wrote:
> > > > High level fuse interface is not the right tool for the job.
> > > > It's not even the easiest way to have written fuse2fs in the first place.
> > >
> > > At the time I thought it would minimize friction across multiple
> > > operating systems' fuse implementations.
> > >
> > > > High-level fuse API addresses file system objects with full paths.
> > > > This is good for writing simple virtual filesystems, but it is not the
> > > > correct nor is the easiest choice to write a userspace driver for ext4.
> > >
> > > Agreed, it's a *terrible* way to implement ext4.
> > >
> > > I think, however, that Ted would like to maintain compatibility with
> > > macfuse and freebsd(?) so he's been resistant to rewriting the entire
> > > program to work with the lowlevel library.
> >
> > My priority is to make sure that we have compatibility with other OS's
> > (in particular MacOS, FreeBSD, if possible Windows, although that's
> > not something that I develop against or have test vehicles to
> > validate).  However, from what I can tell, they all support Fuse3 at
> > this point --- MacFuse, FreeBSD, and WinFSP all have Fuse3 support as
> > of today.
> >
> > The only complaint that I've had about breaking support using Fuse2
> > was from Allison (Cc'ed), who was involved with another Github
> > project, whose Github Actions break because they were using a very old
> > version of Ubuntu LTS 20.04), which only had support for libfuse2.  I
> > am going to assume that this is probably only because they hadn't
> > bothered to update their .github/workflows/ci.yaml file, and not
> > because there was any inherit requirement that we support ancient
> > versions of Linux distributions.  (When I was at IBM, I remember
> > having to support customers who used RHEL4, and even in one extreme
> > case, RHEL3 because there were a customer paying $$$$$ that refused to
> > update; but that was well over a decade ago, and at this point, I'm
> > finding it a lot harder to care about that.  :-)
> >
> > My plan is that after I release 1.47.2 (which will have some
> > interesting data corruption bugfixes thanks to Darrick and other users
> > using fuse2fs in deadly earnest, as opposed to as a lightweight way to
> > copy files in and out of an file system image), I plan to transition
> > the master and next branches for the future 1.48 release, and the
> > maint branch will have bug fixes for 1.47.N releases.
> >
> > At that point, unless I hear some very strong arguments against, for
> > 1.48, my current thinking is that we will drop support for Fuse2.  I
> > will still care about making sure that fuse2fs will build and work
> > well enough that casual file copies work on MacOS and FreeBSD, and
> > I'll accept patches that make fuse2fs work with WinFSP.  In practice,
> > this means that Linux-specific things like Verity support will need to
> > be #ifdef'ed so that they will build against MacFUSE, and I assume the
> > same will be true for fuseblk mode and iomap mode(?).
>
> <nod> I might just drop fuseblk mode since it's unusable for
> unprivileged userspace and regular files; and is a real pain even for
> "I'm pretending to be the kernel" mode.
>
> > This may break the github actions for composefs-rs[1], but I'm going
> > to assume that they can figure out a way to transition to Fuse3
> > (hopefully by just using a newer version of Ubuntu, but I suppose it's
> > possible that Rust bindings only exist for Fuse2, and not Fuse3).  But
> > in any case, I don't think it makes sense to hold back fuse2fs
> > development just for the sake of Ubuntu Focal (LTS 20.04).  And if
> > necessary, composefs-rs can just stay back on e2fsprogs 1.47.N until
> > they can get off of Fuse2 and/or Ubuntu 20.04.  Allison, does that
> > sound fair to you?
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/containers/composefs-rs
> >
> > Does anyone else have any objections to dropping Fuse2 support?  And
> > is that sufficient for folks to more easily support iomap mode in
> > fuse2fs?
>
> I don't have any objections to cleaning the fuse2 crud out of fuse2fs.
>
> I /do/ worry that rewriting fuse2fs to target the lowlevel fuse3 library
> instead of the highlevel one is going to break the !linux platforms.
> Although I *think* macfuse and freebsd fuse actually support the
> lowlevel library will be ok, I do worry that we might lose windows
> support.  I can't tell if winfsp or dokan are what you're supposed to
> use there, but afaict neither of them support the lowlevel interface.
>
> That said, I could just fork fuse2fs and make the fork ("fuse4fs") talk
> to the lowlevel library, and we can see what happens when/if people try
> to build it on those platforms.
>
> (Though again I have zero capacity to build macos or windows programs...)
>
> TBH it might be a huge relief to just start with a new fuse4fs codebase
> where I can focus on making iomap the single IO path that works really
> well, rather than try to support the existing one.  There's a lot of IO
> manager changes in the fuse2fs+iomap prototype that I think just go away
> if you don't need to support doing the file IO yourself.
>
> Any code that's shareable between fuse[24]fs should of course get split
> out, which should ease the maintenance burden of having two fuse
> servers.  Most of fuse2fs' "smarts" are just calling libext2fs anyway.

That seems like a good way to focus your energy on the important
goals. I like it.

Thanks,
Amir.

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