Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 14:44:25 +0100
From: Marco Elver <elver@...gle.com>
To: Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>
Cc: linux-hardening@...r.kernel.org, Justin Stitt <justinstitt@...gle.com>, 
	Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@...nel.org>, Nathan Chancellor <nathan@...nel.org>, 
	Nick Desaulniers <ndesaulniers@...gle.com>, Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>, 
	Hao Luo <haoluo@...gle.com>, Przemek Kitszel <przemyslaw.kitszel@...el.com>, 
	Fangrui Song <maskray@...gle.com>, Masahiro Yamada <masahiroy@...nel.org>, 
	Nicolas Schier <nicolas@...sle.eu>, Bill Wendling <morbo@...gle.com>, 
	Andrey Konovalov <andreyknvl@...il.com>, Jonathan Corbet <corbet@....net>, x86@...nel.org, 
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-kbuild@...r.kernel.org, 
	llvm@...ts.linux.dev, linux-doc@...r.kernel.org, netdev@...r.kernel.org, 
	linux-crypto@...r.kernel.org, kasan-dev@...glegroups.com, 
	linux-acpi@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 2/6] ubsan: Reintroduce signed and unsigned overflow sanitizers

On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 at 13:17, Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 12:01:55PM +0100, Marco Elver wrote:
> > On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 at 11:16, Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org> wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > +config UBSAN_UNSIGNED_WRAP
> > > +       bool "Perform checking for unsigned arithmetic wrap-around"
> > > +       depends on $(cc-option,-fsanitize=unsigned-integer-overflow)
> > > +       depends on !X86_32 # avoid excessive stack usage on x86-32/clang
> > > +       depends on !COMPILE_TEST
> > > +       help
> > > +         This option enables -fsanitize=unsigned-integer-overflow which checks
> > > +         for wrap-around of any arithmetic operations with unsigned integers. This
> > > +         currently causes x86 to fail to boot.
> >
> > My hypothesis is that these options will quickly be enabled by various
> > test and fuzzing setups, to the detriment of kernel developers. While
> > the commit message states that these are for experimentation, I do not
> > think it is at all clear from the Kconfig options.
>
> I can certainly rephrase it more strongly. I would hope that anyone
> enabling the unsigned sanitizer would quickly realize how extremely
> noisy it is.
>
> > Unsigned integer wrap-around is relatively common (it is _not_ UB
> > after all). While I can appreciate that in some cases wrap around is a
> > genuine semantic bug, and that's what we want to find with these
> > changes, ultimately marking all semantically valid wrap arounds to
> > catch the unmarked ones. Given these patterns are so common, and C
> > programmers are used to them, it will take a lot of effort to mark all
> > the intentional cases. But I fear that even if we get to that place,
> > _unmarked_  but semantically valid unsigned wrap around will keep
> > popping up again and again.
>
> I agree -- it's going to be quite a challenge. My short-term goal is to
> see how far the sanitizer itself can get with identifying intentional
> uses. For example, I found two more extremely common code patterns that
> trip it now:
>
>         unsigned int i = ...;
>         ...
>         while (i--) { ... }
>
> This trips the sanitizer at loop exit. :P It seems like churn to
> refactor all of these into "for (; i; i--)". The compiler should be able
> to identify this by looking for later uses of "i", etc.
>
> The other is negative constants: -1UL, -3ULL, etc. These are all over
> the place and very very obviously intentional and should be ignored by
> the compiler.

Yeah, banning technically valid code like this is going to be a very hard sell.

> > What is the long-term vision to minimize the additional churn this may
> > introduce?
>
> My hope is that we can evolve the coverage over time. Solving it all at
> once won't be possible, but I think we can get pretty far with the
> signed overflow sanitizer, which runs relatively cleanly already.
>
> If we can't make meaningful progress in unsigned annotations, I think
> we'll have to work on gaining type-based operator overloading so we can
> grow type-aware arithmetic. That will serve as a much cleaner
> annotation. E.g. introduce jiffie_t, which wraps.
>
> > I think the problem reminds me a little of the data race problem,
> > although I suspect unsigned integer wraparound is much more common
> > than data races (which unlike unsigned wrap around is actually UB) -
> > so chasing all intentional unsigned integer wrap arounds and marking
> > will take even more effort than marking all intentional data races
> > (which we're still slowly, but steadily, making progress towards).
> >
> > At the very least, these options should 'depends on EXPERT' or even
> > 'depends on BROKEN' while the story is still being worked out.
>
> Perhaps I should hold off on bringing the unsigned sanitizer back? I was
> hoping to work in parallel with the signed sanitizer, but maybe this
> isn't the right approach?

I leave that to you - to me any of these options would be ok:

1. Remove completely for now.

2. Make it 'depends on BROKEN' (because I think even 'depends on
EXPERT' won't help avoid the inevitable spam from test robots).

3. Make it a purely opt-in sanitizer: rather than having subsystems
opt out with UBSAN_WRAP_UNSIGNED:=n, do the opposite and say that for
subsystems that want to opt in, they have to specify
UBSAN_WRAP_UNSIGNED:=y to explicitly opt in.

I can see there being value in explicitly marking semantically
intended unsigned integer wrap, and catch unintended cases, so option
#3 seems appealing. At least that way, if a maintainer chooses to opt
in, they are committed to sorting out their code. Hypothetically, if I
was the maintainer of some smaller subsystem and have had wrap around
bugs in the past, I would certainly consider opting in. It feels a lot
nicer than having it forced upon me.

Thanks,
-- Marco

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