Message-ID: <4745278c0607190926l57556563t410ca63514c8ca2f@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Jul 2006 12:26:50 -0400
From:	"Vishal Patil" <vishpat@...il.com>
To:	"Andrea Arcangeli" <andrea@...e.de>
Cc:	"Anton Altaparmakov" <aia21@....ac.uk>,
	"Gary Funck" <gary@...repid.com>,
	"Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Generic B-tree implementation

Andrea

Thank you for your time and a very valuable input. I was thinking of
implementing the VM management using B-trees because I wanted to play
with something interesting in the kernel. However I will definately
look into your idea of page cache as well.

Will keep everyone informed about my progress.

- Vishal


On 7/19/06, Andrea Arcangeli <andrea@...e.de> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2006 at 09:34:43AM -0400, Vishal Patil wrote:
> > I can get rid of recursions using loops, will need to work a little more on
> > it.
>
> Before doing the above you may want to learn about all possible malloc
> retvals too and to make sure the interface has all needed oom failure
> paths that you're obviously missing.
>
> One of the advantages of rbtree vs b-trees (and vs radixtrees too) is
> the fact they require zero dynamic metadata allocations of ram. They
> use the same trick of list.h to avoid it while still being mostly
> generic and sharable library code. Imagine rbtrees like scalable
> lists. The kernel usage is quite optimized too, the mmap path for
> example does a single lookup and it stores the last "lookup" point
> before restarting with an insertion while keeping the mmap_sem (or
> mutex renaming of the day) on hold so to avoid the insertion operation
> to start over with a second (wasteful) lookup (again very similar to
> what you could do if you had list, and the rebalancing is a very
> immediate operation too involving only a limited number of pointers).
>
> > Also I will be working on developing a patch for VM management using
> > B-trees instead of RB-trees.
>
> Once you start changing those bits, you'll notice the further
> requirement of the btrees due to the oom failures in code paths that
> are already reasonably complex with vma oom failures.
>
> As speed of cache raises faster than speed of ram, memory seeks tends
> to cost more than they did in the past, but I doubt it worth it, most
> important especially in the common case of very few vmas. I like the
> common case of only a few dozen vmas to be so fast and low
> overhead. The corner cases like uml and oracle already use nonlinear,
> to also avoid the ram overhead of the vmas, with btree the lowmem
> overhead would be even higher (the only 4/8 bytes of overhead of the
> rbtrees would even be fixable with David's patch, but nobody
> considered it very important so far to eliminate those 4/8 bytes
> 32bit/64bit per vma, though we can do that in the future). So even if
> btree would be faster for those extreme corner cases, it would still
> not be a replacement for the nonlinear (I wish there was a decent
> replacement for nonlinear, whose only reason to exist seems to be uml
> on 64bit archs).
>
> If I would be in you, as a slightly more likely to succeed experiment,
> I would be looking into replacing the pagecache radix-tree with a
> btree, as long as you can leave intact the tagging properties we have
> in the radix-tree needed for finding only dirty elements in the tree
> etc... (we use that to avoid separate dirty lists for the pages). You
> should also size the order to automatically match the cache size of
> the arch (dunno if it's better at compile or run time). I'm no a
> radix-tree guru but the btree may save some ram if you've all
> pagecache pages scattered all over the place with random access. It
> also won't require all levels to be allocated. However it will require
> rebalancing, something the radix tree doesn't require, it seems a bit
> of a tradeoff, and I suspect the radix-tree will still win in all
> common cases. But at least all oom failure paths should already exists
> for you, so that should avoid you having to touch much code externally
> to your own btree files.
>
> I wish you to have fun with the btrees, I remember I had fun back then
> when I was playing with the rbtrees ;).
>


-- 
Motivation will almost always beat mere talent.
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