Date:	Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:36:01 +0100
From:	Dirk <d_i_r_k_@....net>
To:	Helge Hafting <helge.hafting@...el.hist.no>
CC:	Jay Vaughan <jv@...ess-music.de>,
	Trent Waddington <trent.waddington@...il.com>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Gaming Interface

Helge Hafting wrote:
> Dirk wrote:
>> Jay Vaughan wrote:
>>  
>>> At 13:13 +0100 8/1/07, Dirk wrote:
>>>    
>>>> Trent Waddington wrote:
>>>>  > Call me crazy, but game manufacturers want directx right?  You aint
>>>>  > running that in the kernel.
>>>> They want something like DirectX that changes it's API less frequent
>>>> than DirectX and that compiles as a module because you don't want to 
>>>> run
>>>> it in the kernel.
>>>>
>>>>       
>>> Whats wrong with just using SDL/OpenGL?  Thousands of games are made
>>> with SDL/OpenGL, and there are realms of Linux usage where this works
>>> just fine, especially for games (GP2X, etc).  In case you didn't notice,
>>> plenty of pro Game Developers use SDL/OpenGL just fine for their needs,
>>> and get the job done without grumbling and groaning about needing to
>>> have their hands held through the process.
>>>     
>>
>> But I don't see top titles ported to SDL/OpenGL.
> Tough luck then - openGL is the standard gaming interface on linux,
> well for the 3D graphichs part at least.  You already have this,
> so having a "standard" clearly isn't enough then.
> 
> More titles will be ported to linux when linux becomes more
> popular as a home platform.  It is that simple.  And then it will
> happen no matter what the interface will be.  Although I
> believe it will still be opengl - opengl is nice and don't need
> to change. Also, the fact that it isn't in the _kernel_ doesn't
> matter at all. It is in the standard distributions - that is what matters.
> 
> 
>>  You must take into
>> account with what kind of people you're dealing with. It's not the pro
>> Game Develpers who make decisions. It's the people who completely rely
>> on words who ake decisions. So, if you tell them that there will be a
>> _official_ API on Kernel level which will be available on all 300+ Linux
>> distributions they will understand that they're dealing with something
>> they can rely on. 
> Wrong.  This kind of people worry about market share and so
> they decide on windows games for that reason alone.
>> They don't know SDL. And most of these characters
>> think OpenGL is dead.
> It is wrong - it might be dead _on windows_ because
> windows have directx as well as a "less useful" opengl.
>>  That's arrogant, I know. They choice about what
>> stuff they care is made by big words and statements, not by their
>> competence.
>>   
> Then you won't get support here - nobody cares about
> "big words" here.
>>> I fail to see the reason this requirement has to be a 'kernel'
>>> interface, other than pure sheer laziness and inability to grok on the
>>> part of the so-called professional Game Developers.
>>>     
>>
>> That's exactly what I'm talking about. They're lazy and dumb. So they
>> need something where they can say: "Hey, that is one interface that
>> doesn't change every couple of month. I can try to wrap my lazy brain
>> around it with a good feeling."
>>   
> 1. Linux don't support the lazy and dumb. Won't happen.
> 2. Even the lazy and dumb can use nice standardized unchanging
>    interfaces - provided by a library rather than the kernel.  It is not
>    harder to do in any way.
> 
>>>  Gaming is only
>>> *one* kind of application for the Linux kernel - shall we burden the
>>> kernel with everything everyone wants just because people fail to
>>> understand the proper way to assemble a Linux-based kit for their
>>> specific application needs?  (Hint: work with the distro builders.)
>>>     
>>
>> Yes. Exactly. There is already code for very specific tasks in the
>> kernel. A module that acts as a
>> i-will-never-change-my-api-and-will-be-available-on-EVERY-linux-because
>> i'm-part-of-the-kernel wrapper for video, sound and events dedicated to
>> the gaming folks wouldn't hurt.
>>   
> Such a thing is nice - but it don't need to be in the kernel. Try
> to understand that! An interface set in stone can be provided
> by a standard library that all distros pick up. (No distro will
> skip an important library, that way they get behind the other distros.)
> The advantage of this is that such a library can keep the
> game programmers interface constant even when the kernel interfaces
> are mercilessly changed. And yes - they _will_ change.  Everytime
> that happens, people here laugh at commercial actors getting
> in trouble. (Example - the tradition of ruthlessly breaking the binary-only
> modules from ati, nvidia, vmware...)
> 
>>> Just my .2c, but anyone suggesting that API's be crowbar'ed into the
>>> kernel "just to make it easier to get what you want from a single
>>> source" is probably not as familiar with the underlying technology, nor
>>> the reasons for its structured organization, as they ought to be before
>>> making such suggestions ..
>>>     
>>
>> I'm just guessing that the real problem of Linux gaming is that
>> developers must get it that there is an official way to port games to
>> linux w/o toolongdidntread, ever changing API's or as many different
>> problems as there are distributions.
>>   
> Sure, and that official way is to use support libraries.  Such
> as opengl for 3D, and one of the well-supported sound libraries
> for sound, and so on.
>> Porting games to Linux has to be _very_ _easy_.
>>   
> Depends on what you port them from!
> People even write free games for linux, so it can't be that hard.
> Professional game vendors even get paid, so they shouldn't
> have any problem at all then.
> 
>> I have this idea to put such standard API into a kernel (module) because
>> the kernel, unlike SDL and OpenGL, is available on _every_ Linux
>> distribution.
>>   
> Every _module_ isn't available on every distribution either,
> so that's bad thinking. I think you will find the existing
> gaming libraries on any distro aiming at "generic" or "home"
> usage.  Specialist distros aiming at "servers", "firewalls",
> or "small embedded devices" will _not_ have opengl, and not
> any kernel interfaces for graphichs either. Putting stuff in the kernel
> won't change that.
> 
> Note that microsoft does the same thing with its special windows
> distributions - I can't run directx games on the display of my
> windows CE GPS navigator - even though I can install
> third party software there.
> 
>> That is the _only_ reason why I think it should be in/part of the
>> kernel. As I said before: Simple decision makers will see a difference
>> between "Hey, you can port your game using SDL and OpenGL".. or "_Every_
>> Linux system/distribution has a standard Interface for all needs that
>> won't change for a long time." 
> You won't ever get gaming support in every distro - precisely
> because some distros aim specifically for unfit machines like
> embedded devices. I repeat - opengl is supported in the
> distros aiming for home use.
> 
>> They will realize that gaming under Linux
>> has become _one_ _simple_ problem than a
>> number_of_dists*different_configurations=number_of_problems problem.
>>
>> Give them something they can absolutely rely on (no matter which
>> distribution or configuration) and make them realize that Linux is even
>> more spread than OS X and they will have $$$ signs in their eyes.
>>   
> Now you know that it can't happen, and also that the kernel is
> the wrong place for game compatibility layers. Still, you can aim
> for a standardized game interface present in all home distros.
> That is possible.  But you can't get it by posting suggestions here.
> All the people who actually code for linux are able to come
> up with enough ideas themselves.  So nobody is going to
> put your ideas into code - it don't work that way.
> 
> Either _you_ code your game interface yourself, or you fund
> some developers to do it for you. It is that simple.  You can
> of course come here and ask advice about how to do it
> and what parts will be accepted into the kernel and what parts
> must stay outside it.
> 
> This is not the place to post an idea and then expect someone
> to actually program it.  This is the place where you may discuss
> an idea, and then find out if Linus might accept your patch - or not!
> 
> Helge Hafting

Alright. I came to discuss an idea I had because I realized that 
installing Windows and running Linux in VMware is the only _fun_ way to 
play "real" Games and have Linux at the same time.

And everyone who says I'm a troll doesn't like Games or simple things.


Dirk
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