Date:	Tue, 09 Jan 2007 08:22:20 +0100
From:	Dirk <d_i_r_k_@....net>
To:	Kasper Sandberg <lkml@...anurb.dk>
CC:	Helge Hafting <helge.hafting@...el.hist.no>,
	Jay Vaughan <jv@...ess-music.de>,
	Trent Waddington <trent.waddington@...il.com>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Gaming Interface

Kasper Sandberg wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-01-08 at 16:36 +0100, Dirk wrote:
>> Helge Hafting wrote:
>>> Dirk wrote:
>>>> Jay Vaughan wrote:
>>>>  
>>>>> At 13:13 +0100 8/1/07, Dirk wrote:
>>>>>    
>>>>>> Trent Waddington wrote:
>>>>>>  > Call me crazy, but game manufacturers want directx right?  You aint
>>>>>>  > running that in the kernel.
>>>>>> They want something like DirectX that changes it's API less frequent
>>>>>> than DirectX and that compiles as a module because you don't want to 
>>>>>> run
>>>>>> it in the kernel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>> Whats wrong with just using SDL/OpenGL?  Thousands of games are made
>>>>> with SDL/OpenGL, and there are realms of Linux usage where this works
>>>>> just fine, especially for games (GP2X, etc).  In case you didn't notice,
>>>>> plenty of pro Game Developers use SDL/OpenGL just fine for their needs,
>>>>> and get the job done without grumbling and groaning about needing to
>>>>> have their hands held through the process.
>>>>>     
>>>> But I don't see top titles ported to SDL/OpenGL.
>>> Tough luck then - openGL is the standard gaming interface on linux,
>>> well for the 3D graphichs part at least.  You already have this,
>>> so having a "standard" clearly isn't enough then.
>>>
>>> More titles will be ported to linux when linux becomes more
>>> popular as a home platform.  It is that simple.  And then it will
>>> happen no matter what the interface will be.  Although I
>>> believe it will still be opengl - opengl is nice and don't need
>>> to change. Also, the fact that it isn't in the _kernel_ doesn't
>>> matter at all. It is in the standard distributions - that is what matters.
>>>
>>>
>>>>  You must take into
>>>> account with what kind of people you're dealing with. It's not the pro
>>>> Game Develpers who make decisions. It's the people who completely rely
>>>> on words who ake decisions. So, if you tell them that there will be a
>>>> _official_ API on Kernel level which will be available on all 300+ Linux
>>>> distributions they will understand that they're dealing with something
>>>> they can rely on. 
>>> Wrong.  This kind of people worry about market share and so
>>> they decide on windows games for that reason alone.
>>>> They don't know SDL. And most of these characters
>>>> think OpenGL is dead.
>>> It is wrong - it might be dead _on windows_ because
>>> windows have directx as well as a "less useful" opengl.
>>>>  That's arrogant, I know. They choice about what
>>>> stuff they care is made by big words and statements, not by their
>>>> competence.
>>>>   
>>> Then you won't get support here - nobody cares about
>>> "big words" here.
>>>>> I fail to see the reason this requirement has to be a 'kernel'
>>>>> interface, other than pure sheer laziness and inability to grok on the
>>>>> part of the so-called professional Game Developers.
>>>>>     
>>>> That's exactly what I'm talking about. They're lazy and dumb. So they
>>>> need something where they can say: "Hey, that is one interface that
>>>> doesn't change every couple of month. I can try to wrap my lazy brain
>>>> around it with a good feeling."
>>>>   
>>> 1. Linux don't support the lazy and dumb. Won't happen.
>>> 2. Even the lazy and dumb can use nice standardized unchanging
>>>    interfaces - provided by a library rather than the kernel.  It is not
>>>    harder to do in any way.
>>>
>>>>>  Gaming is only
>>>>> *one* kind of application for the Linux kernel - shall we burden the
>>>>> kernel with everything everyone wants just because people fail to
>>>>> understand the proper way to assemble a Linux-based kit for their
>>>>> specific application needs?  (Hint: work with the distro builders.)
>>>>>     
>>>> Yes. Exactly. There is already code for very specific tasks in the
>>>> kernel. A module that acts as a
>>>> i-will-never-change-my-api-and-will-be-available-on-EVERY-linux-because
>>>> i'm-part-of-the-kernel wrapper for video, sound and events dedicated to
>>>> the gaming folks wouldn't hurt.
>>>>   
>>> Such a thing is nice - but it don't need to be in the kernel. Try
>>> to understand that! An interface set in stone can be provided
>>> by a standard library that all distros pick up. (No distro will
>>> skip an important library, that way they get behind the other distros.)
>>> The advantage of this is that such a library can keep the
>>> game programmers interface constant even when the kernel interfaces
>>> are mercilessly changed. And yes - they _will_ change.  Everytime
>>> that happens, people here laugh at commercial actors getting
>>> in trouble. (Example - the tradition of ruthlessly breaking the binary-only
>>> modules from ati, nvidia, vmware...)
>>>
>>>>> Just my .2c, but anyone suggesting that API's be crowbar'ed into the
>>>>> kernel "just to make it easier to get what you want from a single
>>>>> source" is probably not as familiar with the underlying technology, nor
>>>>> the reasons for its structured organization, as they ought to be before
>>>>> making such suggestions ..
>>>>>     
>>>> I'm just guessing that the real problem of Linux gaming is that
>>>> developers must get it that there is an official way to port games to
>>>> linux w/o toolongdidntread, ever changing API's or as many different
>>>> problems as there are distributions.
>>>>   
>>> Sure, and that official way is to use support libraries.  Such
>>> as opengl for 3D, and one of the well-supported sound libraries
>>> for sound, and so on.
>>>> Porting games to Linux has to be _very_ _easy_.
>>>>   
>>> Depends on what you port them from!
>>> People even write free games for linux, so it can't be that hard.
>>> Professional game vendors even get paid, so they shouldn't
>>> have any problem at all then.
>>>
>>>> I have this idea to put such standard API into a kernel (module) because
>>>> the kernel, unlike SDL and OpenGL, is available on _every_ Linux
>>>> distribution.
>>>>   
>>> Every _module_ isn't available on every distribution either,
>>> so that's bad thinking. I think you will find the existing
>>> gaming libraries on any distro aiming at "generic" or "home"
>>> usage.  Specialist distros aiming at "servers", "firewalls",
>>> or "small embedded devices" will _not_ have opengl, and not
>>> any kernel interfaces for graphichs either. Putting stuff in the kernel
>>> won't change that.
>>>
>>> Note that microsoft does the same thing with its special windows
>>> distributions - I can't run directx games on the display of my
>>> windows CE GPS navigator - even though I can install
>>> third party software there.
>>>
>>>> That is the _only_ reason why I think it should be in/part of the
>>>> kernel. As I said before: Simple decision makers will see a difference
>>>> between "Hey, you can port your game using SDL and OpenGL".. or "_Every_
>>>> Linux system/distribution has a standard Interface for all needs that
>>>> won't change for a long time." 
>>> You won't ever get gaming support in every distro - precisely
>>> because some distros aim specifically for unfit machines like
>>> embedded devices. I repeat - opengl is supported in the
>>> distros aiming for home use.
>>>
>>>> They will realize that gaming under Linux
>>>> has become _one_ _simple_ problem than a
>>>> number_of_dists*different_configurations=number_of_problems problem.
>>>>
>>>> Give them something they can absolutely rely on (no matter which
>>>> distribution or configuration) and make them realize that Linux is even
>>>> more spread than OS X and they will have $$$ signs in their eyes.
>>>>   
>>> Now you know that it can't happen, and also that the kernel is
>>> the wrong place for game compatibility layers. Still, you can aim
>>> for a standardized game interface present in all home distros.
>>> That is possible.  But you can't get it by posting suggestions here.
>>> All the people who actually code for linux are able to come
>>> up with enough ideas themselves.  So nobody is going to
>>> put your ideas into code - it don't work that way.
>>>
>>> Either _you_ code your game interface yourself, or you fund
>>> some developers to do it for you. It is that simple.  You can
>>> of course come here and ask advice about how to do it
>>> and what parts will be accepted into the kernel and what parts
>>> must stay outside it.
>>>
>>> This is not the place to post an idea and then expect someone
>>> to actually program it.  This is the place where you may discuss
>>> an idea, and then find out if Linus might accept your patch - or not!
>>>
>>> Helge Hafting
>> Alright. I came to discuss an idea I had because I realized that 
>> installing Windows and running Linux in VMware is the only _fun_ way to 
>> play "real" Games and have Linux at the same time.
>>
>> And everyone who says I'm a troll doesn't like Games or simple things.
> 
> it really seems like you dont know much about development in general.
> 
> first off, sdl havent changed api in long time, atleast nothing that has
> broken anything, and secondly, opengl and such ARE a standard, and yes,
> opengl require some kernel support, which is there.
> 
> no need to have stuff in the kernel that doesent belong there.
> 
> and there are even more wonderful things, you see, a third party
> application(as in, a game) does NOT require stuff like sdl to actually
> be installed on the box, or available in the distributions package
> repository. you see, there is something called linking, a game vendor
> could simply statically link sdl, or dynamically link it, and bundle.
> and as for opengl, that is either there, or not. and if its not there,
> it would not be anyway, as it wouldnt be supported on the given system.
> unless the distribution is NOT meant for things like opengl.
> 
> so in the grand scheme, the things you are suggesting are completely a
> wrong solution, and furthermore, a solution to a problem that does not
> exist.
> 

If there is no problem with Linux gaming I should shut the hell up and 
start buying all these Linux games I keep hearing about and seeing in 
those TV commercials.


Dirk
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