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Date:	Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:35:24 +0100
From:	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>
To:	Jeremy Fitzhardinge <jeremy@...p.org>
Cc:	Dan Hecht <dhecht@...are.com>, James Morris <jmorris@...ei.org>,
	Virtualization Mailing List <virtualization@...ts.osdl.org>,
	akpm@...ux-foundation.org, john stultz <johnstul@...ibm.com>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: + stupid-hack-to-make-mainline-build.patch added to -mm tree

On Wed, 2007-03-07 at 15:33 -0800, Jeremy Fitzhardinge wrote:
> > On the other hand we yet see things like:
> >
> >         /* We use normal irq0 handler on cpu0. */
> >         time_init_hook();
> >
> > Which is just reaching into the kernel code directly and does not handle
> > the clock event interrupt self contained. clockevents is not bound to
> > IRQ0 and this kind of hackery is exactly what we need to avoid in order
> > to get this maintainable.
> >   
> 
> Yes, I'm definitely not arguing with you about this.  I think the first
> cut vmi time code was pretty questionable, but I have confidence they'll
> fix it up before submission.

Sigh. The cut zero hairball is already in mainline. :(

> The point is that when you put the xen and vmi implementations next to
> each other you find that 1) in each case there's a pretty small
> abstraction distance between the clock interface and the hypercall
> interface, and 2) there's very little code which can be shared between
> the two.  Which means that adding another layer of abstraction to
> protect the clock code from paravirtualized time devices is just going
> to add fat without much benefit.

Fair enough.

> > Yes, if they are used in a sane and self contained way without reaching
> > all over the place and expecting that those functions, which are not
> > part of the paravirt interfaces will work for ever.
> >   
> 
> 100% agree.  If the interfaces change, then we'll change the code using
> them like any other kernel code would.  If the new interfaces are hard
> to make work then that's a problem, but one would hope that would get
> shaken out as part of the normal kernel development process.

Sure. If the clockevent API is changed, then the users get fixed. This
is not my main concern. The "oh we reuse the PIT interrupt" reachout is
what makes life hard. VMI does this already extensive and I'm frightened
by it.

> The point is that this code under and around the paravirt_ops interface
> is just normal Linux code, and we expect to participate in the normal
> kernel development process, with all the usual
> discussions/arguments/negotiations over interface changes.  If the code
> loses all its maintainers and becomes orphaned, unresponsive to
> interface changes, then it's like any other dead driver: mark it
> CONFIG_BROKEN and wait for someone to fix it.  But for now and the
> foreseeable future these are going to be actively supported and
> maintained pieces of code.

Ack.

> > You are not increasing the entanglement with the rest of the system,
> > when you use a self contained device on top of an existing core kernel
> > infrastructure, which has a paravirt backend. Quite the contrary, you
> > have one piece of virtual hardware which is connected to the kernel and
> > interacts with the various incarnations on the other side, which can as
> > well live inside the kernel code. Granted it is another level of
> > indirection, but I'd be happy to have only to deal with one of those
> > beasts.
> >   
> 
> Right.  But at that point the interface doesn't really have much of a
> technical basis.  It's really a political border at which you can hand
> off responsibility and make it ours.  I quite understand your
> motivation, but I think you're solving a problem that hasn't happened
> yet, and one that we'd all like to avoid.

Granted.

> I know the vmi time code has coloured your view here, but I surely hope
> it can be got into a better state before posting.  I'm biased of course,
> but I would rather hope that all these drivers we're talking about will
> be as stylistically clean as the Xen time code (which has room for
> improvement, of course).
> 
> There is, however, a median solution which keeps the number of clock
> drivers down but also doesn't involve extending pv_ops.  We can just
> create paravirt_clocksource/paravirt_clockevent helper wrappers, with
> their own internal interfaces to act as a facade for the
> hypervisor-specific code.  I don't think there's much point in doing
> this now, but maybe it will become appealing once we start dealing with
> things like stolen time.

We'll see.

	tglx


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