Message-ID: <a781481a0705172013k1536e586u6908ded5c8f8df@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2007 08:43:17 +0530
From:	"Satyam Sharma" <satyam.sharma@...il.com>
To:	"Bill Davidsen" <davidsen@....com>
Cc:	7eggert@....de, "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>,
	"Jonathan Corbet" <corbet@....net>, akpm@...ux-foundation.org,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	"Johannes Stezenbach" <js@...uxtv.org>,
	"Jesper Juhl" <jesper.juhl@...il.com>,
	"Randy Dunlap" <randy.dunlap@...cle.com>,
	"Heikki Orsila" <shdl@...alwe.fi>,
	"jimmy bahuleyan" <knight.camelot@...il.com>,
	"Stefan Richter" <stefanr@...6.in-berlin.de>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] "volatile considered harmful", take 3

Hi Bill,

On 5/18/07, Bill Davidsen <davidsen@....com> wrote:
> Satyam Sharma wrote:
>
> > *Unfortunately* (the trouble with C itself, is that a *committee* has made
> > it into ... something ... that it should not have made it into) -- anyway,
> > unfortunately C took it upon itself to solve a problem that it did not
> > have (and does not even bring about) in the first place: and the
> > half-hearted (or vague, call it what you will) attempt _then_ ends up
> > being a problem -- by making people _feel_ as if they are doing things
> > right, when that is probably not the case.
> >
> > [ And we've not even touched the issue of whether the _same_ compiler's
> > implementation of volatile across archs/platforms is consistent. ]

> It was a fun experience, where I first learned the modern equivalent of
> Occam's Razor, Plauger's "Law of least astonishment," which compiler
> writers regularly violate :-(

Well, here it was a case of the standard committee violating the principle
of solving a problem _where_ it exists in the first place. As far as volatile
is concerned, the _language_ itself had absolutely no problems that
needed fixing ...

> Pardon, I was GE's representative to the original X3J11 committee, and
> 'volatile' was added to "codify existing practice" which is one of the
> goals of a standard. The extension existed, in at least two forms, to
> allow handling of memory mapped hardware. So the committee did not take
> it upon itself, it was a part of the defined duty of the committee.
>
> The intents was simple, clear, and limited, to tell the compiler that
> every read of a variable in source code should result in a read, at that
> point in the logic, and similar for writes. In other words, the code
> should not be moved and should generate a real memory access every time.
> People have tried to do many things with that limited concept since,
> some with "clarification" and some with assuming the compiler knows when
> to ignore volatile.

In fact I wish the standard just left this functionality entirely up to the
implementation.

After all, C (the _language_) does not mandate memory access
reordering / optimization by implementations so dumb compilers
(5.1.2.3:1) that do not do any are still conformant and hence
don't require the volatile extension (5.1.2.3:8). Implementations that
do perform optimization, otoh, _must_ then solve the possible problems
_themselves_ by providing an extension that allows the programmer
to turn it off (wherever necessary) to prevent those side-effects that the
implementation itself brought about by performing optimization in the
first place. That _compiler extension_ could then of course be called
anything (volatile, foo, bar, barrier, ...) and implemented in any way --
whatever is appropriate for that compiler [1].

[ Analogically, C (or any language) does not mandate the hardware
it runs on to reorder / optimize memory accesses. Those that do, must
clearly then also provide instructions like lfence/sfence/mfence as part
of their instruction set to solve potential issues that _their_ behaviour
brings about in the first place. How horribly wrong it would be for a
_language_ to try and go about solving this problem ... ]

So the way I see it, it's just a case of solving a problem _where_ it
exists in the first place.

Satyam

[1] Which begs the question, so if we wished (note past tense here)
to keep generic kernel code compiler-independent, what do we do in
situations where we want to disable _compiler optimizations_ temporarily
for some piece of code? => By defining macros / some API as part of
our codebase in implementation-specific headers that does whatever
needs to be done for _that_ compiler. => Which is precisely what we
have already and why I like/prefer that.
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