Message-ID: <20070608234629.GA11723@kroah.com>
Date:	Fri, 8 Jun 2007 16:46:29 -0700
From:	Greg KH <greg@...ah.com>
To:	Richard Purdie <rpurdie@...nedhand.com>
Cc:	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Richard Hughes <hughsient@...il.com>,
	"kay.sievers" <kay.sievers@...y.org>,
	"Bryn M. Reeves" <breeves@...hat.com>, John Lenz <lenz@...wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: [patch] Move led attributes out of device name and into sysfs
	attributes, was Re: LED devices

On Sat, Jun 09, 2007 at 12:02:28AM +0100, Richard Purdie wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-06-08 at 11:57 -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 05:23:24PM +0100, Richard Purdie wrote:
> > > I still question whether either colour or function properties are
> > > actually particularly useful to userspace other than for naming purposes
> > > which is why they were part of the device name.
> > > 
> > > Anyhow, I'm trying not to say too much more as it will just go in
> > > circles. I'll await a reply from Greg.
> > 
> > Hm, I thought I made my opinion pretty clear in the beginning.
> > 
> > Why not just do a simple:
> > 	led01
> > 	led02
> > 	led03
> > 	...
> > 
> > and so on?
> 
> If we do this, my point is we're exporting something to userspace which
> is totally devoid of information. 

Just like all other subsystems?

No, the only information the device name is that it shows a UNIQUE name
at that point in time in the kernel.  Heck, we could just use random
numbers that are unique like some other people have suggested, it would
mean the exact same thing.

> sysfs is for userspace and "led01" means absolutely nothing to it.

Wrong, the attributes in that directory mean everything.  The name means
nothing.

> The most you can summarise from it is it happens to have registered
> first and its an LED.

Exactly.

> Since its in class/leds/ we can summarise the latter without help from
> the prefix. I'd hate to think userspace cares about the former.

Ok, then use a random number please.  Start with 00000000000001 and just
increment from there, or use the idr subsystem.

I was trying to be nice and at least give you a prefix that looked kind
of sane to people, but if you want to be difficult... :)

> 
> > And use the 'name' field to put the name of your device (disk,
> > bluetooth, etc.)  This is the way all other busses and devices work, and
> > I don't think that LEDs are anything more "special" than anything else
> > in the kernel, right?
> 
> Since the "busid" field means absolutely nothing, why not give it a
> sensible id and save the overhead of a separate name?

Because that is not how things work, sorry.

> If kernel policy is that we should have useless data in sysfs, so be it,
> I just make sure that is on record and then break the defined LED class
> API.

Again, the bus id needs to be unique, for that specific class/bus that's
it.  The attributes in the directory let you figure out what specifics
are for the device.

Look at the PCI and USB devices.  There is some information you can
glean from those names, but they are primary a unique identifier, you
need to look at the attributes to get the real information about your
device.

LED devices are no different.

> <serious mode>
> Ok, so I make the point above with a sledge hammer. There are more
> subtle issues here too. People are asking for a ton of extra attributes
> for the LED class. We can have a name, a colour, an LED "function", a
> location on the device and probably 101 other things.

Great, the more the merrier.  Seriously, I have no problem with that.

> As I understand it, sysfs was put there to pass information *the kernel
> knows* to userspace. The kernel doesn't actually care about the location
> of an LED or its colour. All the kernel cares is we have an LED and it
> has a certain brightness.

If you know the color and location already, why not export that
information?  Unless you can determine it from userspace some other way
already?

> Yes, we can teach the kernel all this extra info but it is simply to
> pass to userspace. Why should my kernel be bloated with all that extra
> information which it doesn't need itself?

If there's no other way for userspace to determine it, then put it in
the kernel.  Otherwise leave it for userspace to handle.

> My conclusion is that there should be something in userspace
> supplementing this information from the kernel. Going back the the
> problem at hand, HAL is already equipped to do this, all it needs is
> some kind of unique ID so it can identify the LED. This would be the
> busid.

Well, if that is possible.  Just put it in an attribute.

> So I do stand by what the LED class does as being sane. Yes, the class
> defined a way of writing its busids which isn't like any other but there
> is a good reason for it. We could make it machine readable to provide
> hints to userspace and I never saw any reason why we shouldn't have
> done. It was discussed on LKML and no objections were raised (it was in
> fact requested). The choice of field separator is unfortunate since its
> developed other meanings after it was used in the LED class, such is
> life.

Sorry, I missed it with the other stuff on lkml, but now I'm trying to
get this fixed.  Just use an attribute like the whole rest of the
kernel and a number for a bus id.

> So there are various options:
> 
> 1. We keep 'useful' busids and the LED class continues as is. We accept
> classes can provide a busid naming policy if it makes sense.

Nope.

> 2. We adopt free form busids and export a ton of attributes just useful
> to userspace (bloating the kernel IMO).

Yup, and there's no real bloat at all.

> 3. As 2. but use 'useless' busids that mean nothing.

bus ids mean almost nothing today, see above.

> 4. We adopt free form busids but let userspace fill in its own
> information based on the busid (no policy on naming).

No, use an attribute please.

> I'm very aware I'm isolated here and ultimately this is probably Greg's
> decision which I will end up abiding by. If anyone else does have a
> view, speak now ;-). I think there are some important issues here and
> they do need clarification, one way or another.

I know that LEDs are special and unique, just like everyone else, so
please work like everyone else does :)

thanks,

greg k-h
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