Message-Id: <200706172016.17864.rjw@sisk.pl>
Date:	Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:16:16 +0200
From:	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl>
To:	"Natalie Protasevich" <protasnb@...il.com>
Cc:	"Adrian Bunk" <bunk@...sta.de>,
	"Michal Piotrowski" <michal.k.k.piotrowski@...il.com>,
	"Stefan Richter" <stefanr@...6.in-berlin.de>,
	"Oleg Verych" <olecom@...wer.upol.cz>,
	"Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	"Andi Kleen" <andi@...stfloor.org>,
	"Diego Calleja" <diegocg@...il.com>,
	"Chuck Ebbert" <cebbert@...hat.com>,
	"Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	"Andrew Morton" <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>
Subject: Re: How to improve the quality of the kernel?

On Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:42, Natalie Protasevich wrote:
> On 6/17/07, Rafael J. Wysocki <rjw@...k.pl> wrote:
> > On Sunday, 17 June 2007 16:29, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jun 17, 2007 at 03:17:58PM +0200, Michal Piotrowski wrote:
> > > > On 17/06/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@...sta.de> wrote:
> > > >...
> > > >> Fine with me, but:
> > > >>
> > > >> There are not so simple cases like big infrastructure patches with
> > > >> 20 other patches in the tree depending on it causing a regression, or
> > > >> even worse, a big infrastructure patch exposing a latent old bug in some
> > > >> completely different area of the kernel.
> > > >
> > > > It is different case.
> > > >
> > > > "If the patch introduces a new regression"
> > > >
> > > > introduces != exposes an old bug
> > >
> > > My remark was meant as a note "this sentence can't handle all
> > > regressions" (and for a user it doesn't matter whether a new
> > > regression is introduced or an old regression exposed).
> > >
> > > It could be we simply agree on this one.  ;-)
> > >
> > > > Removal of 20 patches will be painful, but sometimes you need to
> > > > "choose minor evil to prevent a greater one" [1].
> > > >
> > > >> And we should be aware that reverting is only a workaround for the real
> > > >> problem which lies in our bug handling.
> > > >...
> > >
> > > And this is something I want to emphasize again.
> > >
> > > How can we make any progress with the real problem and not only the
> > > symptoms?
> >
> > I think that we can handle bug reports like we handle modifications of code.
> >
> > Namely, for each subsystem there can be a person (or a team) responsible
> > for handling bugs, by which I don't mean fixing them, but directing bug reports
> > at the right developers or subsystem maintainers, following the history of each
> > bug report etc.  [Of course, these people can choose to use the bugzilla or any
> > other bug tracking system they want, as long as it works for them.]
> >
> > The email addresses of these people should be known (and even documented),
> > so that everyone can notify them if need be and so that it's clear who should
> > handle given bug reports.
> >
> > Just an idea. :-)
> >
> 
> Those are very good ideas indeed. The whole development process came
> to the point when all realize that something needs to be done for the
> team to balance out new development and old and recent unresolved
> issues that are piling up...
> 
> I've looked through a number of bugzillas recently and here is my
> scoop on shortcomings and some ideas. I am not sure how realistic they
> are, probably might fall into "wishful thinking" category.
> 
> The way bugs get tracked and resolved is definitely a "no guarantee",
> and main reasons are:
>   not enough time for a maintainer to attend to them all
>   nobody else (except at best very few busy people) knows about
> majority of the problems. Andrew and Adrian and Michal post the most
> pressing ones. But there are many many smaller ones that are not
> assessed and not being taken care of.
>   many problems are not easily reproducible and not easy to verify
> because there is no identical system, motherboard, application, etc.
> in case if reporter doesn't stick around until the end of the bug's
> life.

I agree.  In addition, there is only a limited time window in which it makes
sense to debug given problem before the kernel changes too much (that of
course depends on the subsystem in question).

> Maybe along with bugzilla there should be another tracking tool - for
> resources and systems that are available to individual developers.

Yes, that would be very nice to have.

> Someone might have same or similar system to verify fixes in case if
> the reporter disappears or "the system is gone now". Requests for
> specific hardware can be automatically generated by the bugzilla say.
> Those can be posted once in a while for everyone to see and chip in
> and acknowledge if they happen to have such hardware and able to run a
> quick test to at least verify the patch. Statistically, such need
> doesn't happen often for each type of hardware, so it shouldn't be a
> big burden for owners.
> 
> Besides, the database and resources can be useful for developers who
> want to test their new patches on variety of hardware. This might
> prevent future regressions which often caused by lack of testing as we
> all know.

For that, I think, some "professional testers" would be needed ...

Greetings,
Rafael


-- 
"Premature optimization is the root of all evil." - Donald Knuth
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