Date:	Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:23:20 -0700 (PDT)
From:	Casey Schaufler <casey@...aufler-ca.com>
To:	Kyle Moffett <mrmacman_g4@....com>, casey@...aufler-ca.com
Cc:	linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org,
	LKML Kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] Smack: Simplified Mandatory Access Control Kernel


--- Kyle Moffett <mrmacman_g4@....com> wrote:

> <really big snip>
> 
> If you have no interest in categorizing the SELinux access vectors,  
> then how do you expect to categorize the LSM hooks, which are almost  
> 1-to-1 mapped with the SELinux access vectors?

Those that refer to object accesses and those that do not. The former
are generally interesting, the latter are generally not. That's a
rule of thumb, mind you. Anyway, have a look at the hook table, it's
in smack_lsm.c

> > The point you make, that you need to have that in order to create a  
> > policy description, is one of the reasons for Smack. Simplified.
> 
> Well yes, but a simplified policy is useless if it uses no LSM  
> hooks. 

As above, that's smack_lsm.c, a little over 2000 lines of good old
fashioned C code.

> I will write you a Perl script which will generate a complete  
> and functionally equivalent SELinux policy (assuming I have enough  
> free time) given a file with your policy language.  But I can do this  
> if and only if you tell me which of the SELinux access vectors you  
> care about (In other words, which of the LSM hooks you want to  
> require "read", "write", or "execute" privileges for).  With such a  
> little script you could write all the "simplified" policy you want,  
> without having to change the kernel code at all.

It's all spelled out in the module. Go wild.

> <another major snip>
> 
> My point is your policy format is SO simple it doesn't even need the  
> SELinux MLS code to handle it.  From the way you've described it the  
> base policy (~200 lines) would be *identical* regardless of the  
> entries in your policy language, and the rest could be generated by a  
> script directly from the "C Unclass rx"-type stuff.

Ok.

> >> Whoops, I think I must have smashed the delete key or something  
> >> while sending.  Here's the paragraphs which got elided:
> >>
> >> Well, yes, but a policy which completely ignores future  
> >> expandability can't be expanded upon regardless. It would also be  
> >> very hard to add new policy without a lot of duplication under  
> >> your system. On the other hand, with SELinux you can very easily  
> >> add attribute-based policy so adding new capabilities is as simple  
> >> as sticking existing attributes on newly defined types.  For example:
> >>
> >> type my_log_t, file_type, log_file;
> >> type my_log_daemon, daemon;
> >>
> >> Right there I just gave permission for the logrotate to recycle  
> >> files labelled my_log_t, which the sysadmin and audit admin can  
> >> also read (and the audit admin can delete).  I also gave  
> >> permission for my daemon to send SIGCHLD to init, and for init/ 
> >> initscripts to send it a SIGTERM/SIGQUIT.  All without writing a  
> >> SINGLE policy rule.  Basically all of those existing behaviors are  
> >> found in allow rules built on the "file_type", "log_file", and  
> >> "daemon" attributes.
> >
> > Ah, now you're refering to the reference policy, right?
> 
> Yes, precisely.  For most of that functionality there are existing  
> attributes and types defined in the reference policy to make custom  
> policy much easier.  Furthermore, there are interface files which  
> allow me to say something like "Let this program spawn an Apache  
> daemon in the right domain" with a single line.  If I only want to do  
> that when the "httpd" module is loaded I can put the line in an  
> "optional" block.  A policy for a basic network daemon with a couple  
> log files, a config file, and a little database is all of 30 lines,  
> maybe 50 if you throw in comments.

After you have the 400,000 lines of reference policy behind it.

> >>> They can be added or changed one by one as required while the  
> >>> system is running, and there are uses that exploit that. One  
> >>> example is to put the label "Game" on certain programs and:
> >>>
> >>>    at 8:00am "Worker Game no"
> >>>    at 5:00pm "Worker Game x"
> >>>
> >>> Thus Worker processes can access Game files only during off hours.
> >>
> >> This is fundamentally broken:
> >> [...]
> >> Secondly, you can already do the same thing with DAC and a PAM  
> >> groups-from-time-of-day module, I don't see why such a thing is  
> >> special enough to need MAC.  Thirdly, I could do exactly the same  
> >> thing with an SELinux boolean and a cronjob (once we get proper  
> >> revoke support):
> >
> > There is usually a way to address any particular problem using DAC,  
> > it's often sufficiently painful that MAC looks like a better approach.
> 
> No, generally the only reason to use MAC is when it's security- 
> critical (system compromise, classified data, critical  
> infrastructure, etc).  Denying users access to games during the  
> workday is hardly "security-critical".  If that system's CPU time was  
> exclusively needed for a life support machine during the day then  
> maybe, but that's what renice or realtime scheduling are for and why  
> the hell are you installing games on a heart monitor?

HeeHee. Don't think heart monitor, think in-car trip recorder.
The games can only be used when the car's at rest. It's a strange
world we live in today.

> <Another big snip>

> > Yes. This is the way it should be. A small set of very carefully  
> > analysed programs that change labels under carefully controlled  
> > circumstances is what I want. login, sshd, cron, special purpose  
> > launchers. Written with the assumption that they will be attacked.
> 
> Well, under SELinux, all 3 of those processes go through the special  
> purpose PAM module to get their labels changed.  Are you planning to  
> modify *every* daemon to have special type-changing code?  Hell, most  
> don't even have setuid/chroot support and that's all of 15 lines of  
> code and is supported in every UNIX/Linux distro released in the last  
> 10 years (or more).  Besides, why allow the program (say, "ping") to  
> change its own label when the policy could forcibly change it for  
> you.  The label change is NOT just to *give* permissions, it's also  
> to take them away.  For example, when I run "ping", the process gains  
> raw network access but loses access to almost every user file and  
> disables LD_PRELOAD, etc, making it a thousand times harder to  
> compromise it from the inside too.

I don't think we're debating the same issues any more. I can see
that you are well versed in the nuances of SELinux behavior. I
understand what SELinux does, and the arguements in it's favor.
I don't see that the complexity it requires is necessary in many
cases. 
 

> >> Unless you relabel the files and relaunch the daemon the system  
> >> will have no idea how the system will change.  And if you let  
> >> arbitrary root processes relabel things on the fly then you've  
> >> lost all the security advantages to a MAC system.
> >
> > MAC systems have been behaving this way for decades. SELinux is the  
> > exception, not the rule on this.
> 
> "People have been burning witches for decades, that must be the right  
> thing to do"
> 
> The fact that something is commonly done does not make it right,  
> especially when there is a significantly more secure alternative  
> available.

That sword cuts both ways, you know. And if a complex system
is intractable for an environment it cannot make you feel 
more secure.

I think that below here it's all philosophical differences based
on significantly different experiance and goals. Can you run
SELinux successfully on an 2 megahertz ARM processor with 8 meg
of ram, and no labeled file systems? I don't know that Smack
will ever be as appropriate for an enterprise server as SELinux is
today, but time will tell.




Casey Schaufler
casey@...aufler-ca.com
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