Message-ID: <845307.83869.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:28:02 -0800 (PST)
From:	Luben Tuikov <ltuikov@...oo.com>
To:	James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...senPartnership.com>
Cc:	linux-scsi <linux-scsi@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-ide <linux-ide@...r.kernel.org>,
	"Accardi, Kristen C" <kristen.c.accardi@...el.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] enclosure: add support for enclosure services

--- On Mon, 2/4/08, James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...senPartnership.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 18:01 -0800, Luben Tuikov wrote:
> > --- On Mon, 2/4/08, James Bottomley
> <James.Bottomley@...senPartnership.com> wrote:
> > > > > The enclosure misc device is really
> just a
> > > library providing
> > > > > sysfs
> > > > > support for physical enclosure devices
> and their
> > > > > components.
> > > > 
> > > > Who is the target audience/user of those
> facilities?
> > > > a) The kernel itself needing to read/write
> SES pages?
> > > 
> > > That depends on the enclosure integration, but
> right at the
> > > moment, it
> > > doesn't
> > 
> > Yes, I didn't suspect so.
> > 
> > > 
> > > > b) A user space application using sysfs to
> read/write
> > > >    SES pages?
> > > 
> > > Not an application so much as a user.  The idea
> of sysfs is
> > > to allow
> > > users to get and set the information in addition
> to
> > > applications.
> > 
> > Exactly the same argument stands for a user-space
> > application with a user-space library.
> > 
> > This is the classical case of where it is better to
> > do this in user-space as opposed to the kernel.
> > 
> > The kernel provides capability to access the SES
> > device.  The user space application and library
> > provide interpretation and control.  Thus if the
> > enclosure were upgraded, one doesn't need to
> > upgrade their kernel in order to utilize the new
> > capabilities of the SES device.  Plus upgrading
> > a user-space application is a lot easier than
> > the kernel (and no reboot necessary).
> 
> The implementation is modular, so it's remove and
> insert ...

I guess the same could be said for STGT and SCST, right?

LOL, no seriously, this is unnecessary kernel bloat,
or rather at the wrong place (see below).

> 
> > Consider another thing: vendors would really like
> > unprecedented access to the SES device in the
> enclosure
> > so as your ses/enclosure code keeps state it would
> > get out of sync when vendor user-space enclosure
> > applications access (and modify) the SES device's
> > pages.
> 
> The state model doesn't assume nothing else will alter
> the state.

But it would be trivial exercise to show that an
inconsistent state can be had by modifying pages
of the SES device directly from userspace bypassing
your implementation.

> 
> > You can test this yourself: submit a patch
> > that removes SES /dev/sgX support; advertise your
> > ses/class solution and watch the fun.
> > 
> > > > At the moment SES device management is done
> via
> > > > an application (user-space) and a user-space
> library
> > > > used by the application and /dev/sgX to send
> SCSI
> > > > commands to the SES device.
> > > 
> > > I must have missed that when I was looking for
> > > implementations; what's
> > > the URL?
> > 
> > I'm not aware of any GPLed ones.  That doesn't
> > necessarily mean that the best course of action is
> > to bloat the kernel.  You can move your ses/enclosure
> > stuff to a user space application library
> > and thus start a GPLed one.
> 
> Certainly ... patches welcome.

I've non at the moment, plus I don't think you'd be
the point of contact for a user-space SES library.
Unless of course you've already started something up
on sourceforge.

Really, such an effort already exists: it is called
sg_ses(8).

> 
> > > But, if we have non-scsi enclosures to integrate,
> that
> > > makes it harder
> > > for a user application because it has to know all
> the
> > > implementations.
> > 
> > So does the kernel.  And as I pointed out above, it
> > is a lot easier to upgrade a user-space application
> and
> > library than it is to upgrade a new kernel and having
> > to reboot the computer to run the new kernel.
> 
> No, think again ... it's easy for SES based enclosures
> because they have
> a SCSI transport.  We have no transport for SGPIO based
> enclosures nor
> for any of the other more esoteric ones.

Yes, for which the transport layer, implements the
scsi device node for the SES device.  It doesn't really
matter if the SCSI commands sent to the SES device go
over SGPIO or FC or SAS or Bluetooth or I2C, etc, the
transport layer can implement that and present the
/dev/sgX node.

Case in point: the protocol FW running on the ASIC
provides this capability so really the LLDD would
only see a the pure SCSI SES or processor device and
register that with the kernel.  At which point no new
kernel bloat is required.

Your code doesn't quite do that at the moment as it
actually goes further in to read and present SES pages.
Ideally it would simply provide capability for transport
layers to register a SCSI device of type SES, or processor.

Architecturally, the LLDD/transport layer would register
the SGPIO device on one end with the SGPIO layer and on
the other end as a SCSI SES/processpr device.  After that
sg_ses(8) or sglib, fits the bill for user space applications.

> That's not to say it can't be done, but it does
> mean that it can't be
> completely userspace.

See previous paragraph.

> 
> > > A sysfs framework on the other hand is a
> universal known
> > > thing for the
> > > user applications.
> > 
> > So would a user-space ses library, a la libses.so.
> > 
> > > > One could have a very good argument to not
> bloat
> > > > the kernel with this but leave it to a
> user-space
> > > > application and a library to do all this and
> > > > communicate with the SES device via the
> kernel's
> > > /dev/sgX.
> > > 
> > > The same thing goes for other esoteric SCSI
> infrastructure
> > > pieces like
> > > cd changers.  On the whole, given that ATA is
> asking for
> > > enclosure
> > > management in kernel, it makes sense to
> consolidate the
> > > infrastructure
> > > and a ses ULD is a very good test bed.
> > 
> > What is wrong with exporting the SES device as
> /dev/sgX
> > and having a user-space application and library to
> > do all this?
> 
> How do you transport the enclosure commands over /dev/sgX? 
> Only SES has
> SCSI command encapsulation ... the rest won't even be
> SCSI targets ...

What is the protocol of those "rest" that you talk about?

At any rate, this capability lies in the kernel providing
a _device node_ -- not quite what your patch is doing.

   Luben

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