Message-Id: <200803161536.20128.phillips@phunq.net>
Date:	Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:36:19 -0800
From:	Daniel Phillips <phillips@...nq.net>
To:	Alan Cox <alan@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Cc:	Willy Tarreau <w@....eu>, David Newall <davidn@...idnewall.com>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] Ramback: faster than a speeding bullet

Hi Alan,

On Sunday 16 March 2008 14:55, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > That isn't anything to do with what was being proposed. *ORDERING* not
> > > flush to media.
> > 
> > This is where you have made a fundamental mistake in your proposal.
> > Suppose you have a steady, heavy write load onto ramback.  Eventually,
> > the entire ramdisk will be dirty and you have to drop back to disk
> > speed, right?  My design does not suffer from that problem, but your
> > proposal does.
> 
> In your design the entire ramdisk goes bang and disappears on a crash.

According to you.  A more accurate statement: if you have the ramdisk
on the host, then the host is assumed to be reliable.  If the ramdisk
is external (http://www.violin-memory.com/products/violin1010.html)
then your statement is untrue in every sense.

But you did not address the logic of my statement above: that your
fundamental design prevents you from operating at ramdisk speed during
normal operation.

> > It gets worse than that.  Suppose somebody writes the same region
> > twice, how do you order that?  Do you try to store that new data
> > somewhere, keeping in mind that we are already at terabyte scale?  Is
> > there a limit on how much overwrite data you may have to store?  (No.)
> 
> You only have to care about ordering if there is a store barrier between
> the two (not usual).

No wait, it is completely normal.  There is a barrier on every journal
transaction.  Constructing such a load is trivial.

> You only have to care about filling if you generate 
> enough dirty blocks at a very high rate (which is unusual for most
> workloads).

It is completely normal for a transaction processing system.

> If you don't care about those then we have ramdisk already and 

I care about them, as do others.

> if you want to write a ramdisk driver for external ramdisk great. You'd

Exactly the purpose for which this driver was written.  And as a bonus
it happens to be useful for internal ramdisk applications as well.  (It
is useful for me, however your mileage may vary.)

> also fix the layering violations then by allowing device mapper to
> implement things like snapshotting and writeback seperated from your
> driver.

Device mapper already can, so I do not get your point.  Also, what is
this layering violation you refer to?

> Even in the extreme case that you propose there are trivial ways of
> getting coherency. Simple example - if you can sweep all the data out in
> say 10 minutes

If.

> then you can buy twice the physical media and ensure that 
> one of the two sets of disk backups is genuinely store barrier consistent
> to some snapshot time (say every 30 minutes but obviously user tunable).
> If you at least had some kind of credible snapshotting you'd find people
> less hostile to your glorified ramdisk.

Hostility does not equate to accuracy.  Galileo comes to mind.

I see people arguing that a server+linux+batteries+mirroring+replication
cannot achieve enterprise grade reliability.  Balderdash.

Regards,

Daniel
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