Message-ID: <47EC6D29.1080201@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Date:	Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:29:37 +0530
From:	Balbir Singh <balbir@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>
To:	Paul Menage <menage@...gle.com>
CC:	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Pavel Emelianov <xemul@...nvz.org>,
	Hugh Dickins <hugh@...itas.com>,
	Sudhir Kumar <skumar@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	YAMAMOTO Takashi <yamamoto@...inux.co.jp>, lizf@...fujitsu.com,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, taka@...inux.co.jp,
	linux-mm@...ck.org, David Rientjes <rientjes@...gle.com>,
	KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki <kamezawa.hiroyu@...fujitsu.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC][0/3] Virtual address space control for cgroups (v2)

Paul Menage wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Balbir Singh
> <balbir@...ux.vnet.ibm.com> wrote:
>>  >
>>  > I was thinking more about that, and I think I found a possibly fatal flaw:
>>  >
>>
>>  What is the critical flaw?
>>
> 
> Oops, after I'd written that I decided while describing it that maybe
> it wasn't that fatal after all, just fiddly, and so deleted the
> description but forgot to delete the preceding sentence. :-)
> 
> There were a couple of issues. The first was that if the new owner is
> in a different cgroup, we might have to fix up the address space
> charges when we pass off the ownership, which would be a bit of a
> layer violation but maybe manageable.
> 

Yes, we do pass of virtual address space charges during migration. As far as
physical memory control is concerned, the page_cgroup has a pointer to the
mem_cgroup and thus gets returned back to the original mem_cgroup.

> The other was to do with ensuring that mm->owner remains valid until
> after exit_mmap() has been called (so the va limit controller can
> deduct from the va usage).
>>  Yes, I've seen some patches there as well. As far as sparse virtual addresses
>>  are concerned, I find it hard to understand why applications would use sparse
>>  physical memory and large virtual addresses. Please see my comment on overcommit
>>  below.
> 
> Java (or at least, Sun's JRE) is an example of a common application
> that does this. It creates a huge heap mapping at startup, and faults
> it in as necessary.
> 

Isn't this controlled by the java -Xm options?

>>  > But the problem that I have with this is that mmap() is only very
>>  > loosely connected with physical memory. If we're trying to help
>>  > applications avoid swapping, and giving them advance warning that
>>  > they're running out of physical memory, then we should do exactly
>>  > that, not try to treat address space as a proxy for physical memory.
>>
>>  Consider why we have the overcommit feature in the Linux kernel. Virtual memory
>>  limits (decided by the administrator) help us prevent from excessively over
>>  committing the system.
> 
> Well if I don't believe in per-container virtual address space limits,
> I'm unlikely to be a big fan of system-wide virtual address space
> limits either. So running with vm.overcommit_memory=2 is right out ...
> 

Yes, must distros don't do that, on my distro, we have

vm.overcommit_ratio = 50
vm.overcommit_memory = 0


> I'm certainly not disputing that it's possible to avoid excessive
> overcommit by using virtual address space limits.
> 
> It's just for that both of the real-world large-scale production
> systems I've worked with (a virtual server system for ISPs, and
> Google's production datacenters) there were enough cases of apps/jobs
> that used far more virtual address space than actual physical memory
> that picking a virtual address space ratio/limit that would be useful
> for preventing dangerous overcommit while not breaking lots of apps
> would be pretty much impossible to do automatically.

I understand, but

1. The system by default enforces overcommit on most distros, so why should we
not have something similar and that flexible for cgroups.
2. The administrator is expected to figure out what applications need virtual
address space control. Some might need them, some might not


 And specifying
> them manually requires either unusually clueful users (most of whom
> have enough trouble figuring out how much physical memory they'll
> need, and would just set very high virtual address space limits) or
> sysadmins with way too much time on their hands ...
> 

It's a one time thing to setup for sysadmins

> As I said, I think focussing on ways to tell apps that they're running
> low on physical memory would be much more productive.
>

We intend to do that as well. We intend to have user space OOM notification.
It's in the long term list of things TODO, along with watermarks, etc.


-- 
	Warm Regards,
	Balbir Singh
	Linux Technology Center
	IBM, ISTL
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