Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 2008 06:54:01 -0700
From:	Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...radead.org>
To:	"Press, Jonathan" <Jonathan.Press@...com>
Cc:	"Pavel Machek" <pavel@...e.cz>, <davecb@....com>,
	"Mihai Don??u" <mdontu@...defender.com>,
	"Adrian Bunk" <bunk@...nel.org>, <tvrtko.ursulin@...hos.com>,
	"Greg KH" <greg@...ah.com>, <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	<linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org>,
	<malware-list@...ts.printk.net>
Subject: Re: [malware-list] [RFC 0/5] [TALPA] Intro to a linuxinterfaceforon
 access scanning

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 06:46:46 -0400
"Press, Jonathan" <Jonathan.Press@...com> wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pavel Machek [mailto:pavel@...e.cz]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:28 AM
> > To: Press, Jonathan
> > Cc: davecb@....com; Arjan van de Ven; Mihai Don??u; Adrian Bunk;
> > tvrtko.ursulin@...hos.com; Greg KH; linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org;
> linux-security-
> > module@...r.kernel.org; malware-list@...ts.printk.net
> > Subject: Re: [malware-list] [RFC 0/5] [TALPA] Intro to a
> linuxinterfaceforon access
> > scanning
> > 
> > > I think everyone understands one side of the threat model, that is
> Linux machines
> > being carriers of infections aimed at other platforms.  There are
> > many
> ways that
> > such infections can be stored, and many ways in which they can be
> communicated
> > to the target machines.  There are so many that it would not be
> effective or efficient
> > for each such transfer application to be able to handle its own
> malware scanning,
> > which is the short statement of why centralized AV protection with
> notification
> > assistance from the kernel is appropriate.
> > >
> > 
> > No.
> > 
> > Proposed kernel solution did not work -- there still was write
> > vs. read race. You are right that it is not ok for each application
> > to do its own malware scanning, but libmalware.so that handles the
> > scanning seems very reasonable.
> > 
> > And as applications _need_ to be modified for the write vs. read
> > race to be solved, libmalware.so looks like a way forward.
> >
> Pavel
> 
> I am not sure what you are suggesting, and I may have missed the
> libmalware proposal (I don't see any mention of that specific idea in
> any other message).  However, just to be clear...  At no point did we
> suggest that the kernel would do any scanning.  What we have been
> interested in is a mechanism that can allow a scanning application to
> be notified by the kernel of specific i/o events, for those events to
> be blocked by the kernel until a user-space scan is done, and then the
> user-space scan sends back allow or deny, at which point the i/o event
> returns to the caller -- either success or error.  This is the only
> way that malware can be guaranteed of being detected when it is used
> (for local application purposes or for transmission to another
> platform) or created.  

this is a very broad statement that ignores the LD_PRELOAD approach,
and thus not true.


> 
> Also, a solution that requires applications to be modified will not
> work, because there is no way that we would be able to get ALL
> applications on the machines to be modified in the required ways.  If
> ANY applications are not so modified, then you have an unacceptable

you don't need to modify applications to make them use a library...


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