Message-ID: <20081216235116.GA28831@elte.hu>
Date:	Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:51:16 +0100
From:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>
To:	Paul Mackerras <paulus@...ba.org>
Cc:	Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Stephane Eranian <eranian@...glemail.com>,
	Eric Dumazet <dada1@...mosbay.com>,
	Robert Richter <robert.richter@....com>,
	Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...radead.org>,
	Peter Anvin <hpa@...or.com>,
	"David S. Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
	perfctr-devel@...ts.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [patch] Performance Counters for Linux, v4


* Paul Mackerras <paulus@...ba.org> wrote:

> Peter Zijlstra writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 23:11 +1100, Paul Mackerras wrote:

> > > I think the core should put together a list of counters and counter 
> > > groups that it would like to have on the PMU simultaneously and then 
> > > make one call to the arch layer to ask if that is possible.  That 
> > > could either return success or failure.  If it returns failure then 
> > > the core needs to ask for something less, or something different.  
> > > I'm not sure how the core should choose what to ask for instead, 
> > > though.
> > 
> > I think the constraint set should be applied when we add to a group, 
> > if when we add a counter to the group, the result isn't schedulable 
> > anymore, we should fail the group addition - and thereby the counter 
> > creation.
> > 
> > This would leave us with groups that are always schedulable in an 
> > atomic fashion.
> 
> I agree that if adding a counter to a group results in that group not 
> being schedulable any more, we should fail the addition.
> 
> > > From what I understand the code RRs groups (co-scheduling groups 
> > > where possible) (ungrouped counter is a group of one), this means 
> > > that with the above addition you'd have the needed control over 
> > > things.
> > 
> > If you need things to be atomic, create a single group, if you're fine 
> > with RR time-sharing, create multiple.
> 
> I think we need a "full-time" attribute for counters and groups that 
> says "I need to be on the whole time", where "whole time" means whenever 
> the task is running, for a per-task counter or group, or continuously 
> for per-cpu counters/groups.
> 
> With that, the core can check at creation or enable time and return an 
> error if it can't fit all the full-time counters and groups on, or if 
> there is any part-time counter/group that would never get to go on when 
> all the full-time counters/groups are on.  (And I guess creation or 
> enabling of a part-time counter or group should fail if it would never 
> be able to go on.)
> 
> > This seems to leave a hole where multiple monitors collide and create 
> > multiple groups unaware of each-other - could we plug this hole with a 
> > group attribute?
> 
> There could be a "whole-PMU" group attribute, that says "I need raw 
> access to the PMU with no other counters scheduled", which would allow 
> monitoring programs to use arcane PMU features that the kernel doesn't 
> necessarily know about.  But I think that's a bit different from what 
> you're talking about.
> 
> The perf counter subsystem will, in Ingo's design, naturally try to 
> schedule as many counters and groups on as it can.  Given a list of 
> counters/groups, it could start with the first and keep on trying to add 
> counters or groups while it can, essentially trying all possible 
> combinations until it either fills up all the hardware counters or 
> exhausts the possible combinations.  If it moves all the counters/groups 
> that do fit on up to the head of the list, and then rotates them to the 
> back of the list when the timeslice expires, that would probably be OK.  
> In fact the computation about what set of counters/groups to put on 
> should be done when adding/removing a counter/group and when the 
> timeslice expires, rather than at context switch time.  (I'm talking 
> about the list of part-time counters/groups here, of course.)

yeah, something like that sounds sensible.

The principle is this: as long as it's an add-on attribute with a default 
value of zero, so that normal usage does not need to care about it, it's a 
reasonable extension. What we want to avoid is burdening the normal case 
with the weird cases. (and none of the things you mentioned seem to be in 
that category so we are fine.)

	Ingo
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