Message-Id: <B33CBA13-D2A7-44D1-89C8-47178064A3A7@mirell.org>
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 2009 06:11:37 -0600
From:	Mark Miller <mark@...ell.org>
To:	Paul Mundt <lethal@...ux-sh.org>
Cc:	Rob Landley <rob@...dley.net>,
	Embedded Linux mailing list <linux-embedded@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>, Sam Ravnborg <sam@...nborg.org>
Subject: Re: PATCH [0/3]: Simplify the kernel build by removing perl.

On Jan 2, 2009, at 4:57 AM, Paul Mundt wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 04:32:42AM -0600, Mark Miller wrote:
>> On Jan 2, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Paul Mundt wrote:
>>> Misguided rhetoric aside, what does this actually accomplish? If  
>>> folks
>>> add meaningful tools in to the kernel that require python, and it is
>>> generally regarded as being fairly ubiquitous, I can't imagine there
>>> being any substantiated objections against it.
>>
>> And if the said meaningful tools introduce complex dependencies, then
>> there should be an open discussion as to why exactly we need those
>> tools as opposed to a simpler implementation.
>>
> Complex is relative, something that is fairly ubiquitious can hardly  
> be
> labelled as complex, regardless of whether historically people have  
> had
> issues with that dependency in certain spaces. In any event,  
> simplifying
> things is always good, but this open discussion thing is pure fancy,
> since when was the kernel a democracy?

I'm ignoring the bait.

>>> Your main reasons against inclusion of perl seem to be that there is
>>> no realistic expectation for target systems that will be self- 
>>> hosting
>>> will have perl included, or the inherent complexity in maintaining a
>>> coherent cross compiling environment. Both of these things are  
>>> issues
>>> with your own environment, and in no way are these representative of
>>> the  embedded development community at large.
>>
>> I feel that if you attempted to look for discussions on "cross-
>> compiling perl", you will meet with a variety of complaints on what a
>> nightmare it is to do so in a sandboxed environment.
>>
> I've had to deal with cross compiling perl for over a decade, in all  
> of
> its various forms, in all manner of embedded applications, so please  
> tell
> someone who cares.

Ignoring this as well.

> There are various options around this headache today,
> as there have been for ages (though the options these days are rather
> less painful), and if you felt like attempting to look for  
> discussions on
> those rather than trying to push this silly matter perhaps you might  
> come
> up with something.

And ignoring this too.

> The key thing you hit on is that there are a variety of complaints,  
> and
> that is all they have ever been. If your system is so constrained, you
> shouldn't be doing builds on it in the first place. You certainly  
> won't
> be able to build anything in your crippled environment outside of some
> simple applications anyways, this isn't a valid technical reason for
> keeping the kernel a policy stranglehold.

I merely don't like seeing another dependency added when there's no  
logical reason to do it, other than "why not". And there have been  
reasons given for the "not". Your reply, seems merely to be, "Because."


>>> Now with that out of the way, this entire series fundamentally fails
>>> to convert half of the perl scripts shipped with the kernel today,
>>> some that are required for build depending on Kconfig options,
>>
> [snip]
>
>> From what I can tell, it allows one to fully build the Linux kernel
>> without Perl.
>
> Wrong, re-read what I said and try again.

I have done so. And I restate, without these patches, Perl is required  
*for any install*. Your logic seems to be, if Perl is required for any  
part of doing something with the Linux kernel, then there is no reason  
it should not be allowed in all parts.

With this logic, soon the Linux kernel will require so many  
dependencies, that even a minimal system to rebuild itself under  
itself will comprise 200MB for stripped binaries. Right now, it's down  
to about 20ish.

With that, you also require more expertise in maintaing these variety  
of tools. You have given no logical reason on why we need to add more  
complexity to the kernel, when previous tools have managed to deal  
with this task for over ten years without requiring Perl.

>>> Ignoring the compile-time dependencies that you overlooked, what you
>>> define as "development and debugging" scripts are still an integral
>>> part of the system, unless you are trying to argue that embedded
>>> developers have no interest in things like checkstack due to the
>>> trouble of trying to get perl built.
>>
>> Do I need that to compile a kernel? No.
>>
> Compile-time dependencies you do, yes.
>
>> Perl was not required to build the Linux kernel. Now it is. It adds
>> another dependency to the Linux kernel. Requiring bash is far less a
>> dependency that Perl is.
>>
> Perhaps so, but that is largely irrelevant. Moving off of the bash
> dependency is a lot more trivial than moving off of the perl one. The
> kernel bashisms are fairly marginal, and if someone were to do the leg
> work for that, it might even be accepted. Getting rid of perl is an
> uphill battle for no visible gain. People will continue to write and  
> add
> scripts both in bash and perl on a routine basis regardless.
>
>>> The kernel is and always has been about using the right tool for the
>>> job, not a matter of dictating what tools you must use in order to
>>> accomplish a task you are interested in. Common sense does apply  
>>> here
>>> though, so this might be a more daunting task for some than others.
>>
>> How is Perl a better tool for the job than what currently bash and
>> other standard utilities already offer?
>>
> How is bash a better tool for than job than what sed and posix shell
> already offer? Yes, we can reduce our dependencies to the bare  
> minimum,
> but that is not constructive for the folks that are actually writing  
> the
> scripts in the first place.
>
> Likewise, this is not even a real problem in the embedded developer
> demographic, the only place this is a problem is in specially stripped
> distributions or people that don't want to go through the pain of  
> cross
> compiling perl. None of which is of any concern.

Yet again, you have a habit of writing off a large segment of the  
embedded development population that you seem to think doesn't exist.

> If people are going to write useful things that are reasonably  
> expected
> to be standard on build machines, there is no reason to restrict what
> tools they are permitted to use.

> If you have a personal vendetta against
> something that is fairly standard, that is entirely your own personal
> problem, you can choose to deal with it or patch out of tree for  
> your own
> crippled environment (assuming patch isn't too much of an obscure
> dependency).

Last I checked, patch was a part of busybox. Or is that yet another  
realm of embedded development that you are casting off into the depths  
of nowhere?

Honestly, it seems you have a personal vendetta against those not  
wanting to add another dependency.

--
Mark Miller
mark@...ell.org




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