Message-id: <4A166083.8080704@samsung.com>
Date:	Fri, 22 May 2009 17:21:23 +0900
From:	Kim Kyuwon <q1.kim@...sung.com>
To:	Jonathan Cameron <jic23@....ac.uk>
Cc:	felipe.balbi@...ia.com, Kim Kyuwon <chammoru@...il.com>,
	Mohamed Ikbel Boulabiar <boulabiar@...il.com>,
	Trilok Soni <soni.trilok@...il.com>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov@...il.com>,
	"linux-input@...r.kernel.org" <linux-input@...r.kernel.org>,
	Kyungmin Park <kyungmin.park@...sung.com>,
	Jean Delvare <khali@...ux-fr.org>,
	"Zhang, Xing Z" <xing.z.zhang@...el.com>,
	"Gross, Mark" <mark.gross@...el.com>,
	jketreno <jketreno@...ux.intel.com>,
	"Trisal, Kalhan" <kalhan.trisal@...el.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC] Add Input IOCTL for accelerometer devices

Jonathan Cameron wrote:
> No, the conclusion was to wait and see if this is practical. It was kept in
> mind during the several iterations of design of IIO, but the focus of
> development was always high performance capture and handling all the facilities
> of these highly variable sensors as consistently as possible.
> 
> I guess now we are in a position to see if it is indeed practical to add input
> support. 
>

Thank you for your clarification.

>> I can't understand why you inserted ring buffers related stuffs in iio.
>>  Please let me understand in easy words. And please note that in
>> /Documentation/SubmittingPatches
> Because the hardware I have uses hardware ring buffers e.g. VTI SCA3000 series,
> analog adxl345.  More and more sensors are moving this way as without a true
> real time os, it's the only way of ensuring high data rate data is available
> for sophisticated almost real time processing. 

How can you be so sure that more and more sensors use h/w ring buffer? 
Is there any data or experts who supports your point?

And although assuming you are right here, STILL only your SCA3000 series 
have h/w ring buffer. Thus, I think there is no reason the framework 
should have ring buffer feature.

 > You can't afford to have gaps
> in your data.
> 
>  Also, for my primary application (fast, consistent capture
> from a number of different sensors) this is the simplest design that provides
> the performance needed.  We spent a lot of time trying to do this in other
> ways.

Your words('simplest' and 'spending a lot of time') are subjective.

>> 644 4) Don't over-design.
>> 645
>> 646 Don't try to anticipate nebulous future cases which may or may not
>> 647 be useful:  "Make it as simple as you can, and no simpler."
> 
> The are useful. I'm using them in real applications every day.  It might not
> be your use case but it is a number of other peoples (some of whom are cc'd
> above).

Our objective is merging code upstream. We have lots of kernel drivers 
and kernel features which we are using everyday However, I know these 
are can't be merged kernel.

> The absolutely crucial thing about the design is that if you don't want ring
> buffers, then don't use them (by which I mean don't compile them in - it's a
> modular design so if you don't want them you don't have to have them.)

I'm just thinking the right functions should be located in the right 
position. If only SCA3000 series use ring buffer, it should be in the 
SCA3000 series driver.

> In the first instance I probably wouldn't be pushing that element into the kernel.
> As you are illustrating this is controversial and needs a thorough discussion.
> 
> At that point the whole system reduces to  much simpler core which handles
> the sysfs interface registration and management of chrdevs associated with events.
> At this level it's fairly similar to input, but without the event aggregation and
> with things like event escalation and dynamic chrdev allocation.

We already have a nice 'input subsystem'. why not just using 'input 
subsystem'

>> I can't understand. Why we should make accelerometer(or sensor)
>> framework relate to ADC?
> There are a couple of reasons:
> 1) Accelerometers are effectively analog sensors wired up to an ADC. As such
> they share a lot of common features.
> 2) Many real accelerometer rigs out there actually use a pair of chips,
> so as far as Linux is concerned you are talking to an adc not the accelerometer
> on the other side. Handling this case is still an open issue and it was to this
> that I was referring above.

If there is still an open issue, it is difficult to merge this IIO 
subsystem to upstream kernel.

>> My two accelerometer are not in this cases. 
> Indeed not.  But many others are and here we are talking about a general
> framework.
>> If really sensors are related to ADC, it's better make this as library or
>> application.
> That is an open question.  There are cases where it would have to be done
> in kernel (where both the accelerometer and the adc have separate control
> interfaces). 

Then you can make another device driver module or API that can help 
intercommunicate between two devices.

>  Why don't we to be simple. Please let me understand in easy
>> words.
>>
>> Let me ask a few question in conclusion.
> Firstly thanks for sending this driver, its always enlightening to see
> how people have handled such a device.  Out of interest, have you
> posted this to the input list?  I'd be interested to see what their
> comments are.

I can't add this driver to input list, because this kxsd9 driver is for 
accelerometer.

>> 1) Does your iio subsystem have all functions which attached kxsd9
>> driver has? i.e.
>> a. works in polling mode
> Yes,
>> b. works in interrupt mode
> No, but only because I was utilizing it as an example of a minimalist driver.
> See the lis3l02dq driver in the git tree for how it would be extended.
> 
> Firstly, beware, the interrupt case for this chip is very different to the more
> common cases where the interrupt in question indicates the availability of a new
> reading.
> 
> As a more general comment, I'd also argue that the reading you
> take on interrupt is irrelevant. The event was the threshold pass, not the
> value of the reading. It should be up to userspace to decide if it cares what
> the reading is and if it does, it has a polling mode with which to read it.
> As I read the data sheet, the device isn't storing the accelerations at
> interrupt, so the value you are reading is not relevant to the event at all, but
> typically will be another reading.
> 
> I like the code you have for bringing it up from low power mode to grab a current
> value and then go back to sleep. I haven't seen this functionality in many chips.
> 
> There are a couple of ways that it could be handled.
> 1) Register the MOTLat event to be passed up to userspace and let userspace take
>    a reading via the normal poll modes. (pretty much what would happen in input)
> 
> 2) Configure this as and IIO trigger which would allow it to be used to 'trigger'
>    the reading of a number of other sensors as well as the acceleration.
> 
> It should be possible to support both of these but as per your earlier comment
> about not adding features until they are needed, I'd advocate only supporting the
> first option until the someone needs the second.
> 
>> c. provide an interface to user space in order setting a few parameters
>> and read x, y, z variances.
> Yes, via sysfs.
>  
>> 2) How long will it take to your iio subsystem is merged into mainline?
> Not sure - I still don't have enough reviewers. As far as I'm concerned, bar
> changes relating to reviews it's been ready for merging for a couple of
> months.  Since the last posting that got almost no responses the only changes
> have been minor changes and comment clean ups.
> My intention is to shortly seek advice on how to go about doing this, but
> my current feeling is that it will have to be done in stages.  The idea
> is that each stage will involve a relatively small code base and hence
> be easier for reviewers to handle.  The white paper was written to assist
> with this process by providing an overview of how everything links together
> without reviewers having to read the full code.
> 
> 1) The core functionality.   This gives us something very close to input with
> the principal changes as described above.
> 
> 2) A set of example drivers
> 
> At this point we will have a common framework against which to merge new drivers.
> 
> 3) The advanced features (triggering and ring buffering)
> 
> 4) The drivers for devices requiring 3.
>  
>> I have quick review of you iio subsytem. Sorry but I think it' somewhat
>> complicated and have a lot of functions which are still not needed.
> By you - I repeat that I have been using this system in anger for about 6
> months now.  I only know of one bit of functionality in there that I'm not
> currently using (the first of the trigger lists) and that is simply because
> I haven't completed the driver that uses it as yet and dropping it would be
> a trivial change.
>> And
>> it seems like your coding style doesn't look like Linux coding style
>> that I'm familiar with.
> As far as I know the code absolutely conforms to every coding style
> convention of the kernel.  The version in the 'mess' branch has a few comment
> clean ups as a result of checking the kernel doc comments.  If you have
> specific examples please send them on and I'll be happy to clean them up.

For instance, please
drivers/industrialio/ -exec ./scripts/checkpatch.pl --file {} \;

>> I just hope we can add some accelerometer feature into mainline kernel
>> as soon as possible ;)
> I agree.  The stop gap solution (which a number drivers have taken) is to put
> them in drivers/misc on the basis that when we do have an agreed system we can
> then move them over at a later date.  I have already offered to do the
> conversions for a number of such drivers when iio gets merged.
> 
> Jonathan
>

Finally,
Are you OK if someone trys making another framework for input(?)-sensor 
or accelerometer.

Regards,
Kyuwon
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