Date:	Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:51:29 -0400
From:	Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...ymtl.ca>
To:	Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@...il.com>
Cc:	Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	Mike Galbraith <efault@....de>,
	Paul Mackerras <paulus@...ba.org>,
	Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo <acme@...hat.com>,
	Lai Jiangshan <laijs@...fujitsu.com>,
	Anton Blanchard <anton@...ba.org>,
	Li Zefan <lizf@...fujitsu.com>,
	Zhaolei <zhaolei@...fujitsu.com>,
	KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@...fujitsu.com>,
	"K . Prasad" <prasad@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 5/5] perfcounter: Add support for kernel hardware
	breakpoints

* Frederic Weisbecker (fweisbec@...il.com) wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 12:56:56PM +0200, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-07-24 at 19:47 +0200, Frederic Weisbecker wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 04:26:09PM +0200, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 2009-07-24 at 16:02 +0200, Frédéric Weisbecker wrote:
> > > > > 2009/7/23 Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>:
> > > > > > On Mon, 2009-07-20 at 13:08 -0400, Frederic Weisbecker wrote:
> > > > > >> This adds the support for kernel hardware breakpoints in perfcounter.
> > > > > >> It is added as a new type of software counter and can be defined by
> > > > > >> using the counter number 5 and by passsing the address of the
> > > > > >> breakpoint to set through the config attribute.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there a limit to these hardware breakpoints? If so, the software
> > > > > > counter model is not sufficient, since we assume we can always schedule
> > > > > > all software counters. However if you were to add more counters than you
> > > > > > have hardware breakpoints you're hosed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hmm, indeed. But this patch handles this case:
> > > > > 
> > > > > +static const struct pmu *bp_perf_counter_init(struct perf_counter *counter)
> > > > > +{
> > > > > +       if (hw_breakpoint_perf_init((unsigned long)counter->attr.config))
> > > > > +               return NULL;
> > > > > +
> > > > > 
> > > > > IIRC, hw_breakpoint_perf_init() calls register_kernel_breakpoint() which in turn
> > > > > returns -ENOSPC if we haven't any breakpoint room left.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It seems we can only set 4 breakpoints simultaneously in x86, or
> > > > > something close to that.
> > > > 
> > > > Ah, that's not the correct way of doing that. Suppose that you would
> > > > register 4 breakpoint counter to one task, that would leave you unable
> > > > to register a breakpoint counter on another task. Even though these
> > > > breakpoints would never be scheduled simultaneously.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Ah, but the breakpoint API deals with that.
> > > We have two types of breakpoints: the kernel bp and the user bp.
> > > The kernel breakpoints are global points that don't deal with task
> > > scheduling, virtual registers, etc...
> > > 
> > > But the user breakpoints (eg: used with ptrace) are dealt with virtual
> > > debug registers in a way similar to perfcounter: each time we switch the
> > > current task on a cpu, the hardware register states are stored in the
> > > thread, and we load the virtual values into the hardware for the next
> > > thread.
> > 
> > Ah, but that is sub-optimal, perf counters doesn't actually change the
> > state if both tasks have the same counter configuration. Yielding a
> > great performance benefit on scheduling intensive workloads. Poking at
> > these MSRs, esp. writing to them is very expensive.
> 
> 
> Ah ok.
> 
>  
> > So I would suggest not using that feature of the breakpoint API for the
> > perf counter integration.
> 
> 
> That would forbid some kinds of profiling (explanations below).
> 
> 
> > > However, this patchset only deals with kernel breakpoint for now (wide
> > > tracing).
> > 
> > Right, and that's all you would need for perf counter support, please
> > don't use whatever task state handling you have in place.
> 
> 
> I would actually propose to have a separate layer that manages
> the hardware registers <-> per thread virtual registers handling
> for things like breakpoint api and perfcounter.
> 
> I know a simple RR of registers is not that hard to write, but at
> least that can allow simultaneous use of perfcounter and other users
> of breakpoint API without having  two different versions of register
> management.
> 
> 
> > > > Also, regular perf counters would multiplex counters when over-committed
> > > > on a hardware resource, allowing you to create more such breakpoints
> > > > than you have actual hardware slots.
> > 
> > > In the task level I talked above?
> > 
> > For either cpu or task level.
> > 
> > > > The way to do this is to create a breakpoint pmu which would simply fail
> > > > the pmu->enable() method if there are insufficient hardware resources
> > > > available.
> > 
> > > Now I wonder if the code that manages hardware debug breakpoint task switching
> > > and the code from perfcounter could be factorized in one common thing.
> > 
> > Dunno, its really not that hard to RR a list of counters/breakpoint.
> > 
> > > > Also, your init routine, the above hw_breakpoint_perf_init(), will have
> > > > to verify that when the counter is part of a group, this and all other
> > > > hw breakpoint counters in that group can, now, but also in the future,
> > > > be scheduled simultaneously.
> > 
> > > This is already dealt from the hardware breakpoint API.
> > > We use only one breakpoint register for the user breakpoints, and the rest
> > > for kernel breakpoints. Also if no user breakpoint is registered, every
> > > registers can be used for kernek breakpoints.
> > 
> > This means that you can only ever allow 3 breakpoints into any one group
> > and have to ensure that no other user can come in when they're not in
> > active use -- the group is scheduled out.
> > That is, you have to reserve the max number of breakpoint in a group for
> > exclusive use by perf counters.
> 
> 
> Hmm, if we reserve all breakpoints registers for perfcounter exclusive use
> when it runs, that excludes any profiling of ptrace while doing a POKE_USR
> or gdb while using breakpoints.
> 
> That's why I think it would be better to make use of the hardware breakpoints
> from perfcounter using the bp API. Doing so allows concurrent users of bp while
> perf is using them. Then we have no restriction concerning the profiling of
> code that uses breakpoints.
> 
> Using a seperate hardware register <-> virtual register management layer
> would then solve the problem of two different ad hoc implementations to
> maintain and which impacts profiling performances.
> 
>  
> > Also, this 1 for userspace seems restrictive. I'd want to have all 4
> > from GDB if I'd knew my hardware was capable and I'd needed that many.
> 
> 
> Actually I've made a mistake, you can use several user breakpoints, as
> many as the number of hardware breakpoints, minus the number of kernel
> bp currently set.
> 
> 
> > 
> > > > This means that there should be some arbitration towards other in-kernel
> > > > hw breakpoint users, because if you allow all 4 hw breakpoints in a
> > > > group and then let another hw breakpoint users have one, you can never
> > > > schedule that group again.
> > 
> > > That's also why I think it's better to keep this virtual register management
> > > from inside the breakpoint API, so that it can deal with perfcounter, ptrace,
> > > etc... at the same.
> > > 
> > > What do you think?
> > 
> > I think not. I think the breakpoint API should not do task state, or at
> > least have an interface without this.
> > 
> > Having two multiplexing layers on top of one another is inefficient and
> > error prone.
> 
> 
> And what do you think of the above idea?
> 

I agree with your idea to split the hardware counter management from
virtual per-process counters. IMO, this limited resource needs to be
managed centrally at one location and because system-wide level
performance counters do not need to flip the performance counters
depending on the current task. We can easily think of an embedded system
where providing system-wide performance counters would be important (for
tracing for instance), but which would compile-out the per-task
performance counters to save space.

Note that you will have to deal with some policy here, because you can
have performance counter reservation asked from both the kernel
(for either kernel and per-task watchpoints) and from userspace (for
per-task watchpoints).

You have to think of scenarios like:

A userspace application asks for all hardware watchpoints, and then the
kernel needs 1-2 of them. The application should probably be "kicked
out" of 2 of those watchpoints _after_ they have been set up, otherwise
this would allow a resource exhaustion to be performed by the
application at the detriment of the kernel.

Having the ability for a performance counter read to fail when a virtual
performance counter has been kicked-out by a more important user would
allow the kernel to take control of the performance counters without
letting userspace in its way.

Mathieu



> Thanks.
> 

-- 
Mathieu Desnoyers
OpenPGP key fingerprint: 8CD5 52C3 8E3C 4140 715F  BA06 3F25 A8FE 3BAE 9A68
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