linux-kernel - Re: [PATCH] perf_events: add sampling period randomization support (v2)

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:52:14 +0100
From:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>
To:	Stephane Eranian <eranian@...gle.com>
Cc:	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, peterz@...radead.org,
	paulus@...ba.org, fweisbec@...il.com, perfmon2-devel@...ts.sf.net,
	robert.richter@....com, eranian@...il.com, davem@...emloft.net,
	Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo <acme@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] perf_events: add sampling period randomization support
 (v2)


* Stephane Eranian <eranian@...gle.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu> wrote:
> >
> > * Stephane Eranian <eranian@...gle.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:32 AM, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > * eranian@...gle.com <eranian@...gle.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> This patch adds support for randomizing the sampling period. ??Randomization
> >> >> is very useful to mitigate the bias that exists with sampling. The random
> >> >> number generator does not need to be sophisticated. This patch uses the
> >> >> builtin random32() generator.
> >> >
> >> >> + ?? ?? if (width > 63 || attr->freq)
> >> >> + ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? return -EINVAL;
> >> >
> >> > Why not for freq counters? Those are semi-randomized already, but it might
> >> > make sense to make them 'more' randomized in special circumstances. That would
> >> > also allow us to enable the randomization in perf top and perf record, by
> >> > default.
> >> >
> >>
> >> What's the goal of freq?
> >> Achieve and maintain the target interrupt/rate.
> >> In doing so, it has to adjust the period (not randomly).
> >
> > No, the goal of auto-freq is to keep a steady average rate of sampling.
>
> rate of samples = rate of interrupts (if period < 32 bits on Intel).

What's your point? I corrected your statement which said that the goal of 
auto-freq was to maintain a target interrupt-rate and as such wouldnt be 
randomizable. So i said that auto-freq is slightly different from that: it 
provides a steady _average_ rate, and as such small amounts of randomization 
'fuzz' could still be injected - the auto-freq system would auto-correct the 
effects of that.

Think of it as a dynamic steady-state equilibrium with noise injected. If the 
noise isnt too brutal and the system can adapt, the average sampling rate 
doesnt change.

> > There is no requirement to keep it 'steady' - each sample comes with a 
> > specific weight.
> >
> >> Randomization may prevent achieving the rate, or it may slow it down. 
> >> What's the value add of that?
> >
> > Why do you assume that the two are incompatible? We can randomize 
> > auto-freq and still have a perfectly stable average rate.
>
> What would that buy you compared to what you already have?

The same goal as randomization in general: to decrease the chance for sampling 
artifacts that can occur due to the sampling frequency oscillating together 
with some internal workload parameter, skewing the sample.

	Ingo
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/