linux-kernel - Re: [PATCH -tip] introduce sys_membarrier(): process-wide memory barrier (v9)

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Message-ID: <20100316075709.GL2869@laptop>
Date:	Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:57:09 +1100
From:	Nick Piggin <npiggin@...e.de>
To:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>
Cc:	Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@...fujitsu.com>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
	"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	Nicholas Miell <nmiell@...cast.net>, laijs@...fujitsu.com,
	dipankar@...ibm.com, akpm@...ux-foundation.org,
	josh@...htriplett.org, dvhltc@...ibm.com, niv@...ibm.com,
	tglx@...utronix.de, peterz@...radead.org, Valdis.Kletnieks@...edu,
	dhowells@...hat.com, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Chris Friesen <cfriesen@...tel.com>,
	Fr??d??ric Weisbecker <fweisbec@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH -tip] introduce sys_membarrier(): process-wide memory
 barrier (v9)

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 08:36:35AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> 
> * Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com> wrote:
> 
> > * Mathieu Desnoyers (mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com) wrote:
> > > * Linus Torvalds (torvalds@...ux-foundation.org) wrote:
> > > > >  - SA_RUNNING: a way to signal only running threads - as a way for user-space 
> > > > >    based concurrency control mechanisms to deschedule running threads (or, like
> > > > >    in your case, to implement barrier / garbage collection schemes).
> > > > 
> > > > Hmm. This sounds less fundamentally broken, but at the same time also 
> > > > _way_ more invasive in the signal handling layer. It's already one of our 
> > > > more "exciting" layers out there.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Hrm, thinking about it a bit further, the only way I see we could provide a
> > > usable SA_RUNNING flag would be to add hooks to the scheduler. These hooks would
> > > somehow have to call user-space code (!) when scheduling in/out a thread. Yes,
> > > this sounds utterly broken (since these hooks would have to be preemptable).
> > > 
> > > The idea is this: if we look, for instance, at the kernel preemptable RCU
> > > implementations, they consist of two parts: one is iteration on all CPUs to
> > > consider all active CPUs, and the other is a modification of the scheduler to
> > > note all preempted tasks that were in a preemptable RCU C.S..
> > > 
> > > Just for the memory barrier we consider for sys_membarrier(), I had to ensure
> > > that the scheduler issues memory barriers to order accesses to user-space memory
> > > and mm_cpumask modifications. In reality, what we are doing is to ensure that
> > > the operation required on the running thread is done by the scheduler too when
> > > scheduling in/out the task.
> > > 
> > > As soon as we have signal handlers which perform more than a simple memory 
> > > barrier (e.g. something that has side-effects outside of the processor), I 
> > > doubt it would ever make sense to only run the handler on running threads 
> > > unless we have hooks in the scheduler too.
> > 
> > Unless this question is answered, Ingo's SA_RUNNING signal proposal, as 
> > appealing as it may look at a first glance, falls into the "fundamentally 
> > broken" category. [...]
> 
> How is it different from your syscall? I.e. which lines of code make the 
> difference? We could certainly apply the (trivial) barrier change to 
> context_switch().

I think it is just easy for userspace to misuse or think it does
something that it doesn't (because of races).

If a context switch includes a barrier, then it is easy to know that
either the task of interest will execute the barrier, or it will have
context switched.

What more complex operation could be done in the signal handler that
isn't broken by races? Programs that use realtime scheduling policies,
and maybe some statistical or heuristic operations... Any cool use that
would make anybody other than librcu bother using it?


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