Message-ID: <4BA47AD0.2010509@redhat.com>
Date:	Sat, 20 Mar 2010 09:35:44 +0200
From:	Avi Kivity <avi@...hat.com>
To:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>
CC:	Pekka Enberg <penberg@...helsinki.fi>,
	Anthony Liguori <anthony@...emonkey.ws>,
	"Zhang, Yanmin" <yanmin_zhang@...ux.intel.com>,
	Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>,
	Sheng Yang <sheng@...ux.intel.com>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, kvm@...r.kernel.org,
	Marcelo Tosatti <mtosatti@...hat.com>,
	oerg Roedel <joro@...tes.org>,
	Jes Sorensen <Jes.Sorensen@...hat.com>,
	Gleb Natapov <gleb@...hat.com>,
	Zachary Amsden <zamsden@...hat.com>, ziteng.huang@...el.com,
	Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo <acme@...hat.com>,
	Fr?d?ric Weisbecker <fweisbec@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC] Unify KVM kernel-space and user-space code into a single
 project

On 03/19/2010 10:53 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> * Avi Kivity<avi@...hat.com>  wrote:
>
>    
>>> There were two negative reactions immediately, both showed a fundamental
>>> server versus desktop bias:
>>>
>>>   - you did not accept that the most important usecase is when there is a
>>>     single guest running.
>>>        
>> Well, it isn't.
>>      
> Erm, my usability points are _doubly_ true when there are multiple guests ...
>
> The inconvenience of having to type:
>
>    perf kvm --host --guest --guestkallsyms=/home/ymzhang/guest/kallsyms \
>    --guestmodules=/home/ymzhang/guest/modules top
>
> is very obvious even with a single guest. Now multiply that by more guests ...
>    

Yes.  That's why I asked how this is handled.

> The crux is: we are working on improving KVM instrumentation. There are
> working patches posted to this thread and we would like to have/implement an
> automatism to allow the discovery of all this information. The information
> should be available to the developer who wants it, and easily/transparently so
> - in true Linux fashion.
>
>    
>>>   - the reaction to the 'how do we get symbols out of the guest' sub-question
>>>     was, paraphrased: 'we dont want that due to<unspecified>   security threat
>>>     to XYZ selinux usecase with lots of guests'.
>>>        
>> When I review a patch, I try to think of the difficult cases, not
>> just the easy case.
>>      
> You havent articulated an actionable reason and you have suggested no solution
> either,

I did suggest a symbol server, and using a well-known location, though 
I'm unhappy with it.  Multiple guest management should be done by the 
appropriate tools, not qemu or implicitly.

> you just passive-agressive backed the claim that giving developers
> access to the symbol space is some sort of vague 'security threat'.
>    

Passive-aggressive?  Should I see a doctor?

> If that is not so i'd be glad to be proven wrong.
>
>    
>>> Anyone being aware of how Linux and KVM is being used on the desktop will
>>> know how detached that attitude is from the typical desktop usecase ...
>>>
>>> Usability _never_ sucks because of lack of patches or lack of suggestions.
>>> I bet if you made the next server feature contingent on essential
>>> usability fixes they'd happen overnight - for God's sake there's been 1000
>>> commits in the last 3 months in the Qemu repository so there's plenty of
>>> manpower...
>>>        
>> First of all I am not a qemu maintainer. [...]
>>      
> That is the crux of the matter. My experience in these threads was that no-one
> really seems to feel in charge of the whole thing.

I am comfortable with having someone I trust maintain qemu.  While 
sometimes Anthony overrides me on issues where I know I'm right and he's 
wrong, still I prefer that to having to do everything myself, I would 
surely do a worse job due to overload.

I you actually look at qemu patches, the vast majority have little to do 
directly with kvm; and I (along with Marcelo) maintain the kvm 
integration in qemu.

> Should we really wonder why
> KVM usability sucks?
>    

That wouldn't change at all if I were to maintain it, since I wouldn't 
start writing a GUI for it and wouldn't force other contributors to do 
so as a condition for accepting unrelated patches.

>> [...] Second, from my point of view all contributors are volunteers (perhaps
>> their employer volunteered them, but there's no difference from my
>> perspective). Asking them to repaint my apartment as a condition to get a
>> patch applied is abuse.  If a patch is good, it gets applied.
>>      
> This is one of the weirdest arguments i've seen in this thread. Almost all the
> time do we make contributions conditional on the general shape of the project.
> Developers dont get to do just the fun stuff.
>    

So, do you think a reply to a patch along the lines of

   NAK.  Improving scalability is pointless while we don't have a decent 
GUI.  I'll review you RCU patches
   _after_ you've contributed a usable GUI.

?

> This is a basic quid pro quo: new features introduce risks and create
> additional workload not just to the originating developer but on the rest of
> the community as well. You should check how Linus has pulled new features in
> the past 15 years: he very much requires the existing code to first be
> top-notch before he accepts new features for a given area of functionality.
>    

For a given area, yes.  It makes sense to clean up code before changing 
it, otherwise cruft accumulates rapidly.  What you're describing is 
completely different and amounts to total disregard of contributors' 
time and effort.

> Doing that and insisting on developers to see those imbalances as well is
> absolutely essential to code quality: otherwise everyone would be running
> around implementing just the features they are interested in, without regard
> for the general health of the project.
>    

The general health of qemu in terms of code quality was indeed pretty 
bad and there was (and is) a massive effort to modernise it.  If you're 
interested look at qdev and qmp.  Both are efforts to improve the 
infrastructure rather than add features on rotten code, and very 
successful IMO.  There was no effort to write a GUI since no one appears 
to be motivated to do it except you.

> Of course, if you keep the project in two halves (KVM and Qemu), and pretend
> that they are separate and have little relation, imbalances of quality can
> mount up and you can throw your hands up and say that it's "too bad, I'm not
> maintaining that". It is your basic duty as a Linux maintainer to keep
> balances of quality. I do it all day, other maintainers do it all day.
>    

IMO qemu quality has improved dramatically in the last year or two.

>>> Usability suckage - and i'm not going to be popular for saying this out
>>> loud - almost always shows a basic maintainer disconnect with the real
>>> world. See your very first reactions to my 'KVM usability' observations.
>>> Read back your and Anthony's replies: total 'sure, patches welcome' kind
>>> of indifference. It is _your project_, not some other project down the
>>> road ...
>>>        
>> I could drop everything and write a gtk GUI for qemu.  Is that what you
>> want?
>>      
> No, my suggestion to you (it's up to you whether you give my opinion any
> weight) is to accept your mistakes and improve, and to not stand in the way of
> people who'd like to improve the situation. You are happy with the server
> features and you also made it clear that you dont feel responsible for the
> rest of the package - which is a big mistake IMO.
>    

If there were no capable maintainer I would reluctantly step in.  That 
is not the case.  If I were to displace Anthony then qemu quality would 
suffer, or I would have to drop kvm maintainership, or, if some false 
modesty is allowed, perhaps both.

> Also, you have demonstrated it in this thread that you have near zero
> technical clue about basic desktop and development usability matters
>    

Neither do you.  At least I have spent enough time among real usability 
people to know this.  I don't have any pretences in this area and am 
happy to leave it to the experts.  As infrastructure projects kvm and 
qemu should concentrate on providing flexible capabilities to consumers, 
which then expose it to users.  These consumers can be server-oriented 
management applications, or end-user GUIs.

My preferred plan for GUIs, btw, is a plugin based approach where qemu 
exposes its internal objects (the same ones that are exposed to 
management applications) to the GUI which can then manipulate them, 
without being co-maintained in the same code base.  This allows multiple 
GUIs (KDE and GNOME) and allows people with a clue to work on them.

-- 
Do not meddle in the internals of kernels, for they are subtle and quick to panic.

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