Message-ID: <CA1BBBBC9359F04AA639128AC0D5D1E9692AAF29@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com>
Date:	Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:44:05 -0700
From:	"Gross, Mark" <mark.gross@...el.com>
To:	Arve Hjønnevåg <arve@...roid.com>,
	James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...e.de>
CC:	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl>,
	Matthew Garrett <mjg59@...f.ucam.org>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	"tytso@....edu" <tytso@....edu>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Florian Mickler <florian@...kler.org>,
	Linux PM <linux-pm@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
	Linux OMAP Mailing List <linux-omap@...r.kernel.org>,
	"felipe.balbi@...ia.com" <felipe.balbi@...ia.com>,
	Alan Cox <alan@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>,
	Neil Brown <neilb@...e.de>
Subject: RE: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 8)



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Arve Hjønnevåg [mailto:arve@...roid.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 6:11 PM
>To: James Bottomley
>Cc: Rafael J. Wysocki; Matthew Garrett; Thomas Gleixner; Peter Zijlstra;
>tytso@....edu; LKML; Florian Mickler; Linux PM; Linux OMAP Mailing List;
>felipe.balbi@...ia.com; Alan Cox; Alan Stern; Gross, Mark; Neil Brown
>Subject: Re: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 8)
>
>On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 3:36 PM, James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...e.de>
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 2010-06-02 at 00:24 +0200, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
>>> On Tuesday 01 June 2010, James Bottomley wrote:
>>> > On Tue, 2010-06-01 at 14:51 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
>>> > > On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 04:21:09PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > You're the one mentioning x86, not me.  I already explained that
>some
>>> > > > MSM hardware (the G1 for example) has lower power consumption in
>S3
>>> > > > (which I'm using as an ACPI shorthand for suspend to ram) than any
>>> > > > suspend from idle C state.  The fact that current x86 hardware has
>the
>>> > > > same problem may be true, but it's not entirely relevant.
>>> > >
>>> > > As long as you can set a wakeup timer, an S state is just a C state
>with
>>> > > side effects. The significant one is that entering an S state stops
>the
>>> > > process scheduler and any in-kernel timers. I don't think Google
>care at
>>> > > all about whether suspend is entered through an explicit transition
>or
>>> > > something hooked into cpuidle - the relevant issue is that they want
>to
>>> > > be able to express a set of constraints that lets them control
>whether
>>> > > or not the scheduler keeps on scheduling, and which doesn't let them
>>> > > lose wakeup events in the process.
>>> >
>>> > Exactly, so my understanding of where we currently are is:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the recap.
>>>
>>> >      1. pm_qos will be updated to be able to express the android
>suspend
>>> >         blockers as interactivity constraints (exact name TBD, but
>>> >         probably /dev/cpu_interactivity)
>>>
>>> I think that's not been decided yet precisely enough.  I saw a few ideas
>>> here and there in the thread, but which of them are we going to follow?
>>
>> Well, android only needs two states (block and don't block), so that
>> gets translated as 2 s32 values (say 0 and INT_MAX).  I've seen defines
>> like QOS_INTERACTIVE and QOS_NONE (or QOS_DRECKLY or QOS_MANANA) to
>> describe these, but if all we're arguing over is the define name, that's
>> progress.
>
>I think we need separate state constraints for suspend and idle low
>power modes. On the msm platform only a subset of the interrupts can
>wake up from the low power mode, so we block the use if the low power
>mode from idle while other interrupts are enabled. We do not block
>suspend however if those interrupts are not marked as wakeup
>interrupts. Most constraints that prevent suspend are not hardware
>specific and should not prevent entering low power modes from idle. In
>other words we may need to prevent low power idle modes while allowing
>suspend, and we may need to prevent suspend while allowing low power
>idle modes.
>
>It would also be good to not have an implementation that gets slower
>and slower the more clients you have. With binary constraints this is
>trivial.
[mtg: ] agreed.

>
>>
>> The other piece they need is the suspend block name, which comes with
>> the stats API, and finally we need to decide what the actual constraint
>> is called (which is how the dev node gets its name) ...
>>
>>> >      2. pm_qos will be updated to be callable from atomic context
>>> >      3. pm_qos will be updated to export statistics initially closely
>>> >         matching what suspend blockers provides (simple update of the
>rw
>>> >         interface?)
>
>4. It would be useful to change pm_qos_add_request to not allocate
>anything so can add constraints from init functions that currently
>cannot fail.
[mtg: ] I'm not sure how to do this but I agree it would be good.  I guess we could have a block of pm_qos requests pre-allocated statically and re-use them.  In practice there will not be more than a handful of requests ever.  Dynamic allocation does seem like a bit of a waste.

>
>>> >
>>> > After this is done, the current android suspend block patch becomes a
>>> > re-expression in kernel space in terms of pm_qos, with the current
>>> > userspace wakelocks being adapted by the android framework into pm_qos
>>> > requirements expressed to /dev/cpu_interactivity (or whatever name is
>>> > chosen).  Then opportunistic suspend is either a small add-on kernel
>>> > patch they have in their tree to suspend when the interactivity
>>> > constraint goes to NONE, or it could be done entirely by a userspace
>>> > process.  Long term this could migrate to the freezer and suspend from
>>> > idle approach as the various problem timers get fixed.
>>> >
>>> > I think the big unresolved issue is the stats extension.  For android,
>>> > we need just a name written along with the value, so we have something
>>> > to hang the stats off ... current pm_qos userspace users just write a
>>> > value, so the name would be optional.  From the kernel, we probably
>just
>>> > need an additional API that takes a stats name or NULL if none
>>> > (pm_qos_add_request_named()?).  Then reading the stats could be done
>by
>>> > implementing a fops read routine on the misc device.
>>>
>>> Is the original idea of having that information in debugfs
>objectionable?
>>
>> Well ... debugfs is usually used to get around the sysfs rules.  In this
>> case, pm_qos has a dev interface ... I don't specifically object to
>> using debugfs, but I don't see any reason to forbid it from being a
>> simple dev read interface either.
>>
>
>We don't currently have a dev interface for stats so this is not an
>immediate requirement. The suspend blocker debugfs interface is just
>as good as the proc interface we have for wakelocks.
>
>--
>Arve Hjønnevåg
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Powered by blists - more mailing lists