linux-kernel - RE: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 8)

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Date:	Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:15:05 -0700
From:	"Gross, Mark" <mark.gross@...el.com>
To:	Florian Mickler <florian@...kler.org>,
	James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...e.de>
CC:	Arve Hjønnevåg <arve@...roid.com>,
	Neil Brown <neilb@...e.de>, "tytso@....edu" <tytso@....edu>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Alan Cox <alan@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	Linux OMAP Mailing List <linux-omap@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linux PM <linux-pm@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
	"felipe.balbi@...ia.com" <felipe.balbi@...ia.com>
Subject: RE: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 8)



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Florian Mickler [mailto:florian@...kler.org]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 4:06 PM
>To: James Bottomley
>Cc: Arve Hjønnevåg; Neil Brown; tytso@....edu; Peter Zijlstra; LKML; Alan
>Cox; Gross, Mark; Thomas Gleixner; Linux OMAP Mailing List; Linux PM;
>felipe.balbi@...ia.com
>Subject: Re: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 8)
>
>On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:41:11 -0500
>James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...e.de> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2010-06-02 at 21:47 +0200, Florian Mickler wrote:
>> > On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 10:05:11 -0500
>> > James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...e.de> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Tue, 2010-06-01 at 21:41 -0700, Arve Hjønnevåg wrote:
>> > > > No, they have to be two separate constraints, otherwise a
>constraint
>> > > > to block suspend would override a constraint to block a low power
>idle
>> > > > mode or the other way around.
>> > >
>> > > Depends.  If you block the system from going into low power idle,
>does
>> > > that mean you still want it to be fully suspended?
>> > >
>> > > If yes, then we do have independent constraints.  If not, they have a
>> > > hierarchy:
>> > >
>> > >       * Fully Interactive (no low power idle or suspend)
>> > >       * Partially Interactive (may go into low power idle but not
>> > >         suspend)
>> > >       * None (may go into low power idle or suspend)
>> > >
>> > > Which is expressable as a ternary constraint.
>> > >
>> > > James
>> > >
>> >
>> > But unblocking suspend at the moment is independent to getting idle.
>> > If you have the requirement to stay in the highest-idle level (i.e.
>> > best latency you can get) that does not (currently) mean, that you can
>> > not suspend.
>>
>> I don't understand that as a reason.  If we looks at this a qos
>> constraints, you're saying that the system may not drop into certain low
>> power states because it might turn something off that's currently being
>> used by a driver or a process.  Suspend is certainly the lowest state of
>> that because it turns everything off, why would it be legal to drop into
>> that?
>>
>> I also couldn't find this notion of separation of idleness power from
>> suspend blocking in the original suspend block patch set ... if you can
>> either tell me where it is, or give me an example of the separated use
>> cases, I'd understand better.
>>
>> > To preserve that explicit fall-through while still having working
>> > run-time-powermanagement I think the qos-constraints need to be
>> > separated.
>>
>> OK, as above, why?  or better yet, just give an example.
>
>Hm. Maybe it is me who doesn't understand.
>
>With proposed patchset:
>1. As soon as we unblock suspend we go down.  (i.e. suspending)
>2. While suspend is blocked, the idle-loop does it's things. (i.e.
>runtime power managment -> can give same power-result as suspend)
>
>possible cases:
>1:
>   - qos-latency-constraints: 1ms,  [here: forbids anything other than
>     C1 idle state.]
>   - suspend is blocked
>
>2: - qos latency-constraints: as in 1
>   - suspend unblocked
>
>3: - qos latency-constraints: infinity, cpu in lowest power state.
>   - suspend is blocked
>
>4: - qos latency-constraints: infinity, cpu in lowest power state.
>   - suspend unblocked
>
>
>in case 2 and 4 we would suspend, regardeless of the qos-latency.
>
>in case 1 and 3 we would stay awake, regardeless of the qos-latency
>constraint.
>
>
>If only one constraint, then case 2 (or 3) wouldn't be possible. But it
>is possible now.
>
>A possible use case as an example?
>(hmm... i'm trying my imagination hard now):
>	Your sound needs low latency, so that could be a cause for the
>	qos-latency constraint.
>
>	And unblocking suspend could nonetheless happen:
>	For example... you have an firefox open and don't want to
>	prevent suspend for that case when the display is turned off
>
>
[mtg: ] This has been a pain point for the PM_QOS implementation.  They change the constrain back and forth at the transaction level of the i2c driver.  The pm_qos code really wasn't made to deal with such hot path use, as each such change triggers a re-computation of what the aggregate qos request is.

We've had a number of attempts at fixing this, but I think the proper fix is to bolt a "disable C-states > x" interface into cpu_idle that bypases pm_qos altogether.  Or, perhaps add a new pm_qos API that does the equivalent operation, overriding whatever constraint is active.

--mgross


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