Message-ID: <AANLkTi=CAxoKPRvctz5pwN9ACNLM5BbP=u5PocN6Nb+i@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Sat, 9 Oct 2010 23:16:01 +0300
From:	Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@...il.com>
To:	Nicolas Pitre <nico@...xnic.net>
Cc:	Greg KH <greg@...ah.com>,
	Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@....linux.org.uk>,
	linux-main <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-arm <linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org>,
	Arnd Hannemann <arnd@...dnet.de>,
	Han Jonghun <jonghun79.han@...il.com>,
	Uwe Kleine-König 
	<u.kleine-koenig@...gutronix.de>, Hemant Pedanekar <hemantp@...com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] ARM: allow, but warn, when issuing ioremap() on RAM

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Nicolas Pitre <nico@...xnic.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 6:36 AM, Nicolas Pitre <nico@...xnic.net> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Greg KH wrote:
>> >> Wait, let me get this straight:
>> >>   - drivers used to work on 2.6.35
>> >
>> > Possibly on pre ARMv6 only.  On ARMv6 and above, the discussed behavior
>> > _never_ worked.  It is fundamental to the CPU design.
>>
>> That's not true, drivers on ARMv6 and above do work.
>
> So you want to fool yourself?  Fine.  This is your problem.

You are playing with the definition of "work". For me, and millions of
people out there, the drivers do work.

I'm not saying they are working flawlessly, nor that they shouldn't be
fixed, just that they mostly work, at least better than in 2.6.36-rc6.

>> I still wonder how exactly to trigger the issue, and how often does
>> this happen, because I've never seen it.
>
> It's not because you don't see it right away that this is not happening.

I know that, but still, I've asked for a test to trigger this bad
behavior, but I haven't seen any. So how often, and how bad this issue
really is remains a mystery to me.

Again, I'm not saying the issue is not there.

>> >>   - some ARM core code changed in .36-rc to fix this iomem problem that
>> >>     you found
>> >
>> > Nothing was fixed.  There is nothing to fix.  Simply that a wrong driver
>> > assumption about the hardware capability was prohibited by the API.
>>
>> Not exactly. There is supposedly a problem on ARMv6+, there must be a
>> mechanism to avoid this problem, all drivers should migrate to that,
>> or a different on, so that we have a sane API.
>
> Exact.  So please put the necessary effort to 1) understand the issue
> which was clearly explained in details by RMK already, or simply read
> the ARM Architecture Reference Manual for yourself, so that you
> understand the issue and stop asking for unreasonable things, and 2) do
> invest some time to fix your code that never worked properly in the
> first place.

_I_ don't have any code that uses ioremap() that way.

However, I'm looking at code that uses memblock. Wouldn't extending
memblock to specify the mapping of the memory areas be a sensible
generic mechanism?

>> > There is no API change.  Simply an API misuse.  Granted, on pre ARMv6
>> > this usage used to work, but on ARMv6 and above this never was supported
>> > at all by the hardware.  The fact that the software has let it through
>> > was a gross mistake, period.
>>
>> No. It worked just fine, now it's doesn't, that's a change in API
>> behavior, which is also part of the API. It might not be ideal, or
>> proper, but it does work.
>
> Look, if you can't be brought to reason and common sense this will be my
> last reply to you.
>
> What would you say if someone suggested to turn the spinlocks into
> no-ops in a SMP kernel with full preemption configured in?  Let's say
> that person has done that because the lock validator was complaining and
> removing the locks made the warnings as well as the deadlock go away?
> And that person is claiming that the driver now works just fine (or
> appears to work) and no issue what so ever has been observed?  Because
> that's exactly what you're asking for right now.  Except that in this
> case you are willing to ignore a hardware race instead of a software
> one.

Nonsense. That is turning good behavior into bad behavior. Find a
better example that turns bad behavior into good behavior, breaks the
API at run-time, and there isn't a single release that shows a warning
to alert users of the impending breakage.

>> >>   - drivers break when run as the api stops returning valid addresses
>> >
>> > Such drivers on ARMv6 should *never* have worked in the first place.
>> > When they did "work", they corrupted memory.
>>
>> They corrupted their own memory, right? And on _very_ rare occasions I
>> presume, since I've never seen it.
>
> Not their own memory, but *ANY* random memory.  You could corrupt your
> filesystem, have bugs in totally unrelated drivers, and so in ways that
> are totally unpredictable and unreproducible.  Is that the kind of
> system you want to debug?  If you have customers, is that the kind of
> products you want to sell them?

I haven't seen anyone claim that. I guess i'll have to read the TRM,
but of course, a test that reproduces this would help.

>> If so, there's no damage in letting
>> them work at least one more release (2.6.36).
>
> On what basis can you dare make such a foolish claim?  Only on your
> limited testing and own observations?  Do you have some insider
> knowledge of the ARM architecture that would give us confidence in
> ignoring written documentation about this very issue?  What about those
> people besides you who did experience problems before?

Machines don't explode with .35, right?

If you think this behavior is horrible, then this change should be
pushed to all the stable trees, shouldn't it?

> If you want that, then do it in your own tree, oh and let me remember to
> ignore any future request for help from you.  But the mainline tree has
> to be proper regardless of the inconvenience that may cause you,
> _especially_ when data integrity is at stake.

Perhaps, if the issue is as critical as you say.

>> >>   - no known way is around to fix the broken drivers
>> >
>> > That's B/s.  As Russell said, there are known solutions that were
>> > proposed at least six months ago.
>>
>> You seriously think most people out there know how to "set aside some
>> RAM at boot time"?
>
> Indeed I do.  That is not rocket science.  You can easily figure it
> yourself too.

That's exactly what I'm trying right now.

>> I don't, otherwise the drivers would be fixed by now.
>
> And that's why you want me to accept your argument for restoring a
> broken behavior?

*Temporarily*, at least one release.

> Go do your homework and fix your code.

Not _my_ code.

-- 
Felipe Contreras
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