Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.0.999.1011170035050.5484@be1.lrz>
Date:	Wed, 17 Nov 2010 01:06:04 +0100 (CET)
From:	Bodo Eggert <7eggert@....de>
To:	David Rientjes <rientjes@...gle.com>
cc:	Bodo Eggert <7eggert@....de>,
	KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@...fujitsu.com>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Ying Han <yinghan@...gle.com>, Bodo Eggert <7eggert@....de>,
	Mandeep Singh Baines <msb@...gle.com>,
	"Figo.zhang" <figo1802@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] Revert oom rewrite series

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010, David Rientjes wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010, Bodo Eggert wrote:

> > > CAP_SYS_RESOURCE threads have full control over their oom killing priority
> > > by /proc/pid/oom_score_adj
> > 
> > , but unless they are written in the last months and designed for linux
> > and if the author took some time to research each external process invocation,
> > they can not be aware of this possibility.
> > 
> 
> You're clearly wrong, CAP_SYS_RESOURCE has been required to modify oom_adj 
> for over five years (as long as the git history).  8fb4fc68, merged into 
> 2.6.20, allowed tasks to raise their own oom_adj but not decrease it.  
> That is unchanged by the rewrite.

You are misunderstanding me. It was allowed to do this, but it did not need 
to do it yet. It was enough to be a well-written POSIX application without 
linux-specific OOM hacks for some specific kernel versions.

> > Besides that, if each process is supposed to change the default, the default
> > is wrong.
> 
> That doesn't make any sense, if want to protect a thread from the oom 
> killer you're going to need to modify oom_score_adj, the kernel can't know 
> what you perceive as being vital.  Having CAP_SYS_RESOURCE alone does not 
> imply that, it only allows unbounded access to resources.  That's 
> completely orthogonal to the goal of the oom killer heuristic, which is to 
> find the most memory-hogging task to kill.

The old oom killer's task was to guess the best victim to kill. For me, it 
did a good job (but the system kept thrashing for too long until it kicked
the offender). Looking at CAP_SYS_RESOURCE was one way to recognize 
important processes.

> > 1) The exponential scale did have a low resolution.
> > 
> > 2) The heuristics were developed using much brain power and much
> >    trial-and-error. You are going back to basics, and some people
> >    are not convinced that this is better. I googled and I did not
> >    find a discussion about how and why the new score was designed
> >    this way.
> >    looking at the output of:
> >    cd /proc; for a in [0-9]*; do
> >      echo `cat $a/oom_score` $a `perl -pes/'\0.*$'// < $a/cmdline`;
> >    done|grep -v ^0|sort -n |less
> >    , I 'm not convinced, too.
> > 
> 
> The old heuristics were a mixture of arbitrary values that didn't adjust 
> scores based on a unit and would often cause the incorrect task to be 
> targeted because there was no clear goal being achieved.  The new 
> heuristic has a solid goal: to identify and kill the most memory-hogging 
> task that is eligible given the context in which the oom occurs.  If you 
> disagree with that goal and want any of the old heursitics reintroduced, 
> please show that it makes sense in the oom killer.

The first old OOM killer did the same as you promise the current one does,
except for your bugfixes. That's why it killed the wrong applications and
all the heuristics were added until the complaints stopped.

Off cause I did not yet test your OOM killer, maybe it really is better.
Heuristics tend to rot and you did much work to make it right.

I don't want the old OOM killer back, but I don't want you to fall
into the same pits as the pre-old OOM killer used to do.

> > PS) Mapping an exponential value to a linear score is bad. E.g. A
> >     oom_adj of 8 should make an 1-MB-process as likely to kill as
> >     a 256-MB-process with oom_adj=0.
> > 
> 
> To show that, you would have to show that an application that exists today 
> uses an oom_adj for something other than polarization and is based on a 
> calculation of allowable memory usage.  It simply doesn't exist.

No such application should exist because the OOM killer should DTRT.
oom_adj was supposed to let the sysadmin lower his mission-critical
DB's score to be just lower than the less-important tasks, or to
point the kernel to his ever-faulty and easily-restarted browser.

> > PS2) Because I saw this in your presentation PDF: (@udev-people)
> >     The -17 score of udevd is wrong, since it will even prevent
> >     the OOM killer from working correctly if it grows to 100 MB:
> > 
> 
> Threads with CAP_SYS_RESOURCE are free to lower the oom_score_adj of any 
> thread they deem fit and that includes applications that lower its own 
> oom_score_adj.  The kernel isn't going to prohibit users from setting 
> their own oom_score_adj.

My point is: The udev people should not prevent the OOM killer 
unconditionally, it has an important task in case something goes wrong.
I just didn't want to start a new thread at that time of day.
-- 
How do I set my laser printer on stun?
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