Message-ID: <20110104094922.GA4812@amd>
Date:	Tue, 4 Jan 2011 20:49:22 +1100
From:	Nick Piggin <npiggin@...nel.dk>
To:	Christoph Hellwig <hch@...radead.org>
Cc:	Nick Piggin <npiggin@...nel.dk>, linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>
Subject: Re: [patch 8/8] fs: add i_op->sync_inode

On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 04:25:01AM -0500, Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 07:03:23PM +1100, Nick Piggin wrote:
> > > There is absolutely no problem with writing out inodes asynchronously,
> > > it's just that the writeback code can't really cope with it right now.
> > > The fix is to only update i_state on I/O completion.
> > 
> > I don't know what you mean by this. As a filesystem generic API,
> > .write_inode says almost nothing. Some filesystems will do one thing,
> > some may do something in future after patches to the vfs to allow more
> > fancy work, others do other things, generic code can't assume any of
> > that.
> 
> There is no problem with having a method (let's call it write_inode for
> simplicity, it could be sync_inode or got knows what else) to write
> clear the dirty state of the VFS inode asynchronously, as long as we
> make sure the bits are only updated once it's been successfull.  That
> is for an async call we can't let the caller of ->write_inode update
> it, but need to do it in an I/O completion callback.

Right, but that would be a bit of a change to generic code and a really
big change to make all filesystems support the API.

What I am saying right now is that .write_inode doesn't mean anything
to generic code, except that it does something "nice" for
writeback/reclaim purposes, and it needs to be called within the
sync / fsync protocol.

But .write_inode on its own doesn't mean anything. Not even if 99% of
the filesystems implement it in a particular way. Hence,
sync_inode_metadata and such can't be used in generic code like nfsd.


> > > The blocking vs non-blocking difference is actually quite important for
> > > performance still.
> > 
> > I don't see how it could be. All integrity points still have to wait for
> > all potentially non blocking write_inode, so if that's the case just make
> > *all* the write_inode non blocking to begin with. Simpler code and
> > you'd get more performance at least in the sync(3) case where writeback
> > and waiting of multiple inodes can be batched.
> 
> The problem is that currently we almost never do a pure blocking
> ->write_inode.  The way the sync code is written we always do a
> non-blocking one first, then a blocking one.  If you always do the
> synchronous one we'll get a lot more overhead - the first previous
> asynchronous one will write the inode (be it just into the log, or for
> real), then we write back data, and then we'll have to write it again
> becaus it has usually been redirtied again due to the data writeback in
> the meantime.

It doesn't matter, the integrity still has to be enforced in .sync_fs,
because sync .write_inode may *never* get called, because of the fact
that async .write_inode also clears the inode metadata dirty bits.

So if .sync_fs has to enforce integrity anyway, then you don't ever need
to do any actual waiting in your sync .write_inode. See?


>  If you want to get rid of the asynchronous ones you need
> to get rid of the callers, and not just change the behaviour in the
> implementations.

The patches are working towards that. It's a lot less broken that it
was, and (barring my oversights, or existing fs bugs) it should actually
"work" now.

In cases where particular calls remain, it is for example where the
filesystem calls their own handler and so it knows what it can expect.


> > >  In fact for most modern filesystems we simply don't
> > > every want to do a normal writeout for the !sync case.  Either it would
> > > be a no-op, or do something like we do in xfs currently, where we make
> > > sure to read the inode to start the read/modify/write cycle early, and
> > > put it at the end of the delayed write queue.  The sync one on the other
> > > hand just logs the inode, so that the log force in ->sync_fs/etc can
> > > write them all out in one go.
> > 
> > Great, so why would you ever do a sync .write_inode?
> 
> We need to propagate the VFS dirty state into the fs-internal state,
> e.g. for XFS start a transaction.  The reason for that is that the VFS
> simply writes timestamps into the inode and marks it dirty instead of
> telling the filesystem about timestamp updates.  For XFS in
> 2.6.38+ timestamp updates and i_size updates are the only unlogged
> metadata changes, and thus now the only thing going through
> ->write_inode.

Well then you have a bug, because a sync .write_inode *may never get
called*. You may only get an async one, even in the case of fsync,
because async writeback clears the vfs dirty bits.


> > > > Also giving filesystems the flexibility to do the data writeout can
> > > > be more optimal by doing all writeout at once or ordering to suit their
> > > > writeback patterns. Having range data could give some performance
> > > > advantages writing back mappings or commit operations over network. I
> > > > don't see it as a big complexity. It gives a chance to do range fsyncs
> > > > and sync_file_range and such properly too.
> > > 
> > > We currently do all that just fine before calling into ->fsync.
> > 
> > What do you mean we do all that just fine? A filesystem can't schedule
> > data submission and waiting optimally versus metadata, it can't do
> > metadata operations or remote commits corresponding to data ranges, and
> > it doesn't support nfs sync operations.
> 
> A normal filesystems needs to wait for data I/O to finish before updating
> the metadata for data integrity reasons - otherwise we can expose stale
> data in case of a crash - that's one of the things we fixed a couple of
> kernel releases ago.  As I said I have no problems moving the

Yes, and that's a filesystem-implementation detail.


> data operations into ->fsync or adding range information if we actually
> need it.  Show me a filesystem that really needs this to get good
> performance and we can adapt the ->fsync prototype.  If we need it at
> all we'll need it for network/distributed filesystems, though - which
> have a tendency to actually require the file argument and won't be
> able to use an inode operations.  Nevermind the fact that
> file_operations are what we use for all data I/O operations, and messing
> this up for the sake of it doesn't seem like an overly useful idea.

Just if I'm adding this API it makes sense to add the obvious
parameters. A sync range does not "hugely complicate the API" at
all.

 
> Care to explain what you mean with nfs sync operations?

The one that is attempted to be implemented with sync_inode_metadata.

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