linux-kernel - Re: CONFIG_ARM_DMA_MEM_BUFFERABLE and readl/writel weirdness

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Date:	Wed, 9 Mar 2011 09:38:09 +0000
From:	Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@....linux.org.uk>
To:	Saravana Kannan <skannan@...eaurora.org>
Cc:	Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@....com>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-arm-kernel <linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org>,
	linux-arm-msm@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: CONFIG_ARM_DMA_MEM_BUFFERABLE and readl/writel weirdness

On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 01:32:15AM -0800, Saravana Kannan wrote:
> On Wed, March 9, 2011 12:05 am, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 08, 2011 at 08:58:20PM -0800, Saravana Kannan wrote:
> >> On 03/03/2011 02:24 AM, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> >>> On Wed, Mar 02, 2011 at 11:49:47PM -0800, Saravana Kannan wrote:
> >>>>> I think you misunderstand what's going on.  IO accesses are always
> >>>>> ordered
> >>>>> with respect to themselves.  The barriers are there to ensure
> >>>>> ordering
> >>>>> between DMA coherent memory (normal non-cached memory) and IO
> >>>>> accesses
> >>>>> (device).
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately this is not correct. The ARM spec doesn't guarantee that
> >>>> all IO accesses should be ordered with respect to themselves. It only
> >>>> requires that the ordering should be guaranteed at least within a 1KB
> >>>> region.
> >>>>
> >>>> You can find this info in ARMv7 ARM spec[1] named
> >>>> "DDI0406B_arm_architecture_reference_manual_errata_markup_8_0.pdf", on
> >>>> page A3-45. There is a para that goes:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Accesses must arrive at any particular memory-mapped peripheral or
> >>>> block of memory in program order, that is, A1 must arrive before A2.
> >>>> There are no ordering restrictions about when accesses arrive at
> >>>> different peripherals or blocks of memory, provided that the accesses
> >>>> follow the general ordering rules given in this section."
> >>>
> >>> That is news to me.  My DDI0406B does not have this paragraph, so it's
> >>> something that ARM has sprung upon us without telling *anyone* about
> >>> it.
> >>> It's not unreasonable or even unexpected.  That is exactly the same
> >>> condition which applies on buses like PCI due to write posting on
> >>> bridges
> >>> downstream of the CPU, and issuing memory barriers will not help with
> >>> that.
> >>
> >> While the PCI stuff is true, as you say, it's not related to mb()s. The
> >> mb()s matter to the point of getting the writes to the  intended
> >> "devices addresses" in the program order. What happens after that is a
> >> separate issue.
> >>
> >> So, going back to the discussion of mb()s and readl/writel (and
> >> variations), I think we should no longer state the all IO accesses are
> >> ordered wrt each other. Are we in agreement on this?
> >
> > No, because you clearly haven't understood the point I made.
> >
> > I still believe you are wrong on this point.
> 
> I'm not going to pretend to be a PCI expert, but I think the ARMv7 ARM
> text I quoted makes it pretty clear that all IO accesses are not ordered
> wrt each other. So, why do you still disagree on that point?

Because you're entirely missing my point, and you don't need to be a PCI
expert to understand it.  You're just not taking the time to think about
it because it says "PCI" and I guess you're not interested in PCI.

The point I made is that even on a strongly ordered CPU, accesses to PCI
devices on different busses can be _out_ _of_ _order_.  This is something
we expect.  This is something we deal with by reading back from the device
after a write _if_ the driver deems that the relative ordering matters.

That's a decision for the device driver to make - and the _only_ way to
do that is by reading back from the device.  Adding memory barriers do
*not* help, and if your 'ARM expert' thinks it does then he's wrong.

I will not change the CONFIG_ARM_DMA_MEM_BUFFERABLE text - this config
option is about the type of memory used for the DMA memory, and not
about IO access ordering.  To make it so confuses the two issues.
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/