Message-Id: <201106271907.59067.hverkuil@xs4all.nl>
Date:	Mon, 27 Jun 2011 19:07:58 +0200
From:	Hans Verkuil <hverkuil@...all.nl>
To:	Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab@...hat.com>
Cc:	Sakari Ailus <sakari.ailus@....fi>, Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
	Linux Media Mailing List <linux-media@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] [media] v4l2 core: return -ENOIOCTLCMD if an ioctl  doesn't exist

On Monday, June 27, 2011 17:33:58 Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> Em 27-06-2011 11:56, Hans Verkuil escreveu:
> > On Monday, June 27, 2011 15:54:11 Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> >> Em 27-06-2011 09:17, Hans Verkuil escreveu:
> >>> While we don't have an enum capability, in many cases you can deduce
> >>> whether a particular ioctl should be supported or not. Usually based on
> >>> capabilities, sometimes because certain ioctls allow 'NOP' operations that
> >>> allow you to test for their presence.
> >>>
> >>> Of course, drivers are not always consistent here, but that's a separate
> >>> problem.
> >>
> >> Any "hint" code that would try to do some NOP operations may fail. One of the
> >> reasons is that such hint is not documented. Yet, I don't officially support
> >> such "hint" methods at the API.
> > 
> > The point is that the spec can easily be improved to make such 'NOP' operations
> > explicit, or to require that if a capability is present, then the corresponding
> > ioctl(s) must also be present. Things like that are easy to verify as well with
> > v4l2-compliance.
> 
> We currently have more than 64 ioctl's. Adding a capability bit for each doesn't
> seem the right thing to do. Ok, some could be grouped, but, even so, there are
> drivers that implement the VIDIOC_G, but doesn't implement the corresponding VIDIO_S.
> So, I think we don't have enough available bits for doing that.

No, that's not what I meant.

Whether or not ioctls are implemented can in many cases be deduced from the
QUERYCAP capabilities: e.g. if V4L2_CAP_STREAMING is set, then the buffer I/O
ioctls have to be there. For other ioctls the test whether they are implemented
is also often straightforward: e.g. if VIDIOC_G_INPUT returns -EINVAL, then
that can only mean that it isn't implemented, and neither are ENUM_INPUT and
S_INPUT.

In cases where only the G variant is implemented, there we need to tighten
the spec and require that these ioctls are properly implemented: you either
implement all of the ENUM/G/TRY/S ioctls or none.

Currently ENUM_FRAMESIZES/INTERVALS is one set of ioctls where this is very
ambiguous. For most of the others it is pretty straightforward.

> >> Btw, there are two drivers returning -ENOTTY, when the device got disconnected
> >> (or firmware were not uploaded).
> >>
> >> The truth is that the current API specs for return code is bogus.
> > 
> > Bogus in what way? It's been documented very clearly for years. We may not like
> > that design decision (I certainly don't like it), but someone clearly thought
> > about it at the time.
> 
> Bogus in the sense that drivers don't follow them, as they're returning undocumented
> values. Any application strictly following it will have troubles.

I suspect that in most cases the drivers are fairly reasonable, but the spec
wasn't updated with the new error codes.

> >> The right thing to do is to create a separate chapter for error codes, based on errno(3)
> >> man page, where we document all error codes that should be used by the drivers. Then,
> >> at the ioctl pages, link to the common chapter and, only when needed, document special
> >> cases where an error code for that specific ioctl has some special meaning.
> > 
> > Great, I've no problem with that. But this particular error code you want to change
> > is actually implemented *consistently* in all drivers. There is no confusion, no
> > ambiguity, and it is according to the spec.
> 
> As I said, from userspace perspective, it is not consistent to assume that EINVAL means
> not implemented. For sure at VIDIOC_S_foo, this is not consistent. Even on some GET types
> of ioctl, like for example [1][2], there are other reasons for an EINVAL return.
> 
> [1] http://linuxtv.org/downloads/v4l-dvb-apis/vidioc-cropcap.html
> [2] http://linuxtv.org/downloads/v4l-dvb-apis/vidioc-g-audio.html
> 
> The only way to make it consistent is to use different return codes for "invalid parameters" 
> and for "unsupported ioctl".

No, what we do is perfectly consistent: i.e. we always return EINVAL when an
ioctl is not supported. That's what 'consistent' means. Whether that is the
*right* error code is something else.

But right now our API and our documentation is perfectly consistent and has been
for years.

<snip>

> > The fact that many drivers use error codes creatively doesn't give us an excuse
> > to just change the one error code that is actually used everywhere according to
> > the spec! That's faulty logic.
> 
> The fix that it is needed is to provide a consistent way for an userspace application
> to know for sure when an ioctl is not supported. It can be done on a simple way of
> just returning a different error code for it, or with complex mechanisms like adding
> a per-ioctl flag and some hint logics based on NOP.

It's a 'fix' that I fear may break applications because drivers suddenly change
their behavior. You can't just ignore that. You also can't analyze applications,
since closed source apps may also use it, and we obviously have no control over
those.

> The V4L2 is complex enough for us to add more complexity with hints and cap flags.

Actually, all it needs for the most part is that current implicit rules are made
explicit: if a certain querycap flag is set, then a corresponding set of ioctls
must be implemented. If I can call the GET ioctl, then the ENUM and SET (and
TRY) must also be implemented. Sensible rules at any time, they just need to be
made explicit.

If you want to change it to ENOTTY, then go right ahead. But you can explain
it to our customers when their app suddenly breaks for some hardware.

I don't get it. This is really not a problem. We rarely, if ever, get complaints
about it, and there is a ton of other much more important stuff that needs to
be done.

Regards,

	Hans
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