Message-ID: <20110701085414.GV6069@pengutronix.de>
Date:	Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:54:14 +0200
From:	Sascha Hauer <s.hauer@...gutronix.de>
To:	Ryan Mallon <rmallon@...il.com>
Cc:	Bill Gatliff <bgat@...lgatliff.com>, Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org,
	viresh kumar <viresh.kumar@...com>,
	Shawn Guo <shawn.guo@...aro.org>,
	Ryan Mallon <ryan@...ewatersys.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/3] PWM: add pwm framework support

On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 06:28:48PM +1000, Ryan Mallon wrote:
> On 01/07/11 17:37, Sascha Hauer wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 09:24:05AM +1000, Ryan Mallon wrote:
> >> On 01/07/11 03:02, Sascha Hauer wrote:
> >>> Bill,
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 11:17:54AM -0500, Bill Gatliff wrote:
> >>>> Guys:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Arnd Bergmann<arnd@...db.de>  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> A lot of people want to see a framework get merged, and I think it's
> >>>>> great that Sascha has volunteered to do the work to push that
> >>>>> through this time, especially since you have not been able to
> >>>>> finish your work.
> >>>> Sascha is wasting his time by reinventing the wheel.  He's traveling
> >>>> over exactly the same path I have already covered.  In fact, some of
> >>>> his reviewer comments are almost word-for-word the same as those I
> >>>> have received and addressed in the past.
> >>>>
> >>>> My patches were always kept current in this mailing list and others,
> >>>> and Sascha clearly has the skills necessary to make improvements and
> >>>> corrections should he have chosen to do so.
> >>> I think that you made the fundamental mistake to completly ignore the
> >>> existing pwm API and its users. With a competing api we are basically
> >>> stuck. We can't convert the existing hardware drivers to the new API
> >>> because leds-pwm.c, pwm_bl.c and others still depend on the old API and
> >>> boards using it would break.
> >> I don't think this is really a blocker to Bill's patches. There are
> >> three (that I can see) pwm users currently:
> >> drivers/video/backlight/pwm_bl.c
> >> drivers/leds/leds-pwm.c
> >> drivers/input/misc/pwm-beeper.c
> >>
> >> All of those drivers are trivial and good easily be updated to work
> >> with Bill's patches. Bill already provided a leds-pwm driver.
> > Yes, it is easy but that's not my point. The point is that you can't
> > convert the drivers without converting *all* hardware drivers in a
> > *single* step. If you choose to have two competing APIs in the tree
> > for one purpose you can't convert the drivers but instead you have
> > to copy them, either with cp or ifdefs. I have just looked at the
> > leds-pwm driver Bill provided. Applying it immediately breaks all
> > users.
> >
> 
> At _any_ point that you change the pwm api you will need to change all
> of the drivers. How do you plan to adapt the api in the future to
> support the oddball pwm drivers without having to change all of the
> drivers in one go?

It is a framework between hardware drivers and user drivers and as such
it is able to abstract between the API to the hardware drivers and the
API to the user drivers. You can change one of those without touching
the other.

> 
> The number of pwm drivers and users is so small that it would be nice to
> see a patch series that introduces the new framework/api and converts
> all of the drivers over. That way we don't get left in an intermediate
> state with some drivers using the new framework and some using the old one.

Go ahead, send patches.

> 
> >> There is also the interesting case of the Atmel pwm driver, which
> >> does not fit the current pwm api and has its own backlight and leds
> >> drivers. Bill's patches addressed this, Sasha's patches do not. If
> >> we merge Sasha's patches then we are going to be in the same
> >> position as Bill's patches at some point in that we need to change
> >> the pwm api (and all its users) to meet the needs of the Atmel (and
> >> any similar hardware) pwm device.
> > My patches are compatible to the current (user-) API on purpose. It
> > offers the possibility to convert each hardware driver independently
> > of the others. Once we have a framework we can change the driver API
> > independent of the user API.
> 
> We should just convert all of the drivers now rather than waiting for
> the various maintainers to do it. Because your proposed api is backwards
> compatible and most SoC platforms don't have additional external pwms
> there is little motivation for them to do this work.

And with a compatible API this is an easy job. Just remove the list
handling from the drivers and put the pwm_* functions into callbacks.
The motivation to do this comes from the people who want to change
the pwm API. I volunteer to convert at least the PXA and i.MX driver.

> 
> >> The ep93xx pwm driver (drivers/misc/ep93xx-pwm.c) also does not fit
> >> the current api (though it could), but instead provides a sysfs
> >> interface to user-space. Again, this was addressed by Bill's
> >> patches.
> >>
> >>> We can't convert the function drivers
> >>> either because again this would break boards for which only an old style
> >>> pwm driver exists.  So the logical thing to do is to put a step in
> >>> between: Consolidate the existing drivers and *then* change the API
> >>> atomically so that nothing breaks. Your patches don't do this, so I
> >>> don't think at all that what I did is duplication of work.
> >> You have to modify the drivers anyway match the new pwm core.
> > Yes. But changing the user API *and* the driver API in a single patch
> > really is a bad idea.
> 
> It doesn't have to be in a single patch, but it should be in a single
> patch series.
> 
> > I don't say at all that the end result Bill is aiming at is bad because
> > it isn't. We are not talking about the end result, but only the way to
> > get there. And getting from a to b in bisectable small steps is a well
> > established development model in the Kernel, or have I missed something?
> 
> The bi-sectable steps is fine. But what we have is a patch series which
> introduces a new framework with a vague promise that the existing
> drivers will get converted and the api will be improved later. Again,
> the number of in-kernel users is so small that we may as well do it all
> in one series.

I don't understand you. On one hand you argue that it's trivial enough to
port all drivers over the a new API in a single series and on the other
hand you argue that we have to wait for several subsystem maintainers
to port the drivers over to an existing-but-now-in-a-framework API.

> 
> >> The
> >> Atmel and ep93xx drivers are going to be difficult to merge into the
> >> new api, and seeing as there are only about seven pwm drivers total
> >> in the kernel I think its a significant portion. Any pwm api
> >> patchset could easily convert all of the existing pwm drivers
> >> without becoming overly massive.
> >>
> >> If we merge Sasha's api, then we can move most of the existing
> >> drivers and maybe add some new ones, but we will still have the
> >> unconsolidated outliers. When (if?) we try to fix those we will
> >> probably need to change the pwm api and therefore all of the drivers
> >> to. So its basically a case of do the effort now (Bill's patches) or
> >> do it later. Doing it later will probably require more effort.
> >>
> >>> Given the current rush to move drivers out of arch/ it probably won't
> >>> take long until all pwm drivers are moved to drivers/pwm/ and converted
> >>> to use the framework, and then you have a good base to put your work onto.
> >>> So please don't complain too much: We are currently only doing the work
> >>> you didn't want to do.
> >>>
> >> You can move all of the drivers out of arch now if you want. You
> >> just need to make sure you are only compiling one of them in.
> > Yes, we can. But this does not solve the migration problem I try
> > to describe in this and the previous mail.
> >
> > Let's face it: Bill is working on his PWM patches for three years now,
> > still the merge of these patches is not in sight. Let's just split
> > them into smaller parts which are easier to swallow.
> >
> 
> Sure, but your series still leaves a lot of work to be done. How many
> years will the ep93xx and atmel pwm drivers exist in isolation from the
> rest of the pwm drivers?

If we continue to argue probably many years...

Sascha

-- 
Pengutronix e.K.                           |                             |
Industrial Linux Solutions                 | http://www.pengutronix.de/  |
Peiner Str. 6-8, 31137 Hildesheim, Germany | Phone: +49-5121-206917-0    |
Amtsgericht Hildesheim, HRA 2686           | Fax:   +49-5121-206917-5555 |
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Powered by blists - more mailing lists