Message-ID: <4F3BB9DC.6040102@redhat.com>
Date:	Wed, 15 Feb 2012 15:57:48 +0200
From:	Avi Kivity <avi@...hat.com>
To:	Alexander Graf <agraf@...e.de>
CC:	Anthony Liguori <anthony@...emonkey.ws>,
	KVM list <kvm@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	qemu-devel <qemu-devel@...gnu.org>,
	kvm-ppc <kvm-ppc@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [Qemu-devel] [RFC] Next gen kvm api

On 02/15/2012 03:37 PM, Alexander Graf wrote:
> On 15.02.2012, at 14:29, Avi Kivity wrote:
>
> > On 02/15/2012 01:57 PM, Alexander Graf wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Is an extra syscall for copying TLB entries to user space prohibitively
> >>> expensive?
> >> 
> >> The copying can be very expensive, yes. We want to have the possibility of exposing a very large TLB to the guest, in the order of multiple kentries. Every entry is a struct of 24 bytes.
> > 
> > You don't need to copy the entire TLB, just the way that maps the
> > address you're interested in.
>
> Yeah, unless we do migration in which case we need to introduce another special case to fetch the whole thing :(.

Well, the scatter/gather registers I proposed will give you just one
register or all of them.

> > btw, why are you interested in virtual addresses in userspace at all?
>
> We need them for gdb and monitor introspection.

Hardly fast paths that justify shared memory.  I should be much harder
on you.

> >> 
> >> Right. It's an optional performance accelerator. If anything doesn't align, don't use it. But if you happen to have a system where everything's cool, you're faster. Sounds like a good deal to me ;).
> > 
> > Depends on how much the alignment relies on guest knowledge.  I guess
> > with a simple device like HPET, it's simple, but with a complex device,
> > different guests (or different versions of the same guest) could drive
> > it very differently.
>
> Right. But accelerating simple devices > not accelerating any devices. No? :)

Yes.  But introducing bugs and vulns < not introducing them.  It's a
tradeoff.  Even an unexploited vulnerability can be a lot more pain,
just because you need to update your entire cluster, than a simple
device that is accelerated for a guest which has maybe 3% utilization. 
Performance is just one parameter we optimize for.  It's easy to overdo
it because it's an easily measurable and sexy parameter, but it's a mistake.

> > 
> > One thing that's different is that virtio offloads itself to a thread
> > very quickly, while IDE does a lot of work in vcpu thread context.
>
> So it's all about latencies again, which could be reduced at least a fair bit with the scheme I described above. But really, this needs to be prototyped and benchmarked to actually give us data on how fast it would get us.

Simply making qemu issue the request from a thread would be way better. 
Something like socketpair mmio, configured for not waiting for the
writes to be seen (posted writes) will also help by buffering writes in
the socket buffer.

> > 
> > The all-knowing management tool can provide a virtio driver disk, or
> > even slip-stream the driver into the installation CD.
>
> One management tool might do that, another one might now. We can't assume that all management tools are all-knowing. Some times you also want to run guest OSs that the management tool doesn't know (yet).

That is true, but we have to leave some work for the management guys.

>  
> >> So for MMIO reads, I can assume that this is an MMIO because I would never write a non-readable entry. For writes, I'm overloading the bit that also means "guest entry is not readable" so there I'd have to walk the guest PTEs/TLBs and check if I find a read-only entry. Right now I can just forward write faults to the guest. Since COW is probably a hotter path for the guest than MMIO, this might end up being ineffective.
> > 
> > COWs usually happen from guest userspace, while mmio is usually from the
> > guest kernel, so you can switch on that, maybe.
>
> Hrm, nice idea. That might fall apart with user space drivers that we might eventually have once vfio turns out to work well, but for the time being it's a nice hack :).

Or nested virt...



-- 
error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function

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