Message-ID: <20120318170659.GC12163@envy17>
Date:	Sun, 18 Mar 2012 10:06:59 -0700
From:	mark gross <markgross@...gnar.org>
To:	MyungJoo Ham <myungjoo.ham@...il.com>
Cc:	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl>, markgross@...gnar.org,
	Stephen Rothwell <sfr@...b.auug.org.au>,
	Dave Jones <mavej@...hat.com>, linux-pm@...r.kernel.org,
	"linux-next@...r.kernel.org" <linux-next@...r.kernel.org>,
	Len Brown <len.brown@...el.com>, Pavel Machek <pavel@....cz>,
	Kevin Hilman <khilman@...com>, Jean Pihet <j-pihet@...com>,
	kyungmin.park@...sung.com, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v3] PM / QoS: Introduce new classes: DMA-Throughput and
 DVFS-Latency

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 05:30:33PM +0900, MyungJoo Ham wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Rafael J. Wysocki <rjw@...k.pl> wrote:
> > On Friday, March 09, 2012, MyungJoo Ham wrote:
> >> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:47 PM, mark gross <markgross@...gnar.org> wrote:
> >> > On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 02:02:01PM +0900, MyungJoo Ham wrote:
> >> >> 1. CPU_DMA_THROUGHPUT
> >> ...
> >> >> 2. DVFS_LATENCY
> >> >
> >> > The cpu_dma_throughput looks ok to me.  I do however; wonder about the
> >> > dvfs_lat_pm_qos.  Should that knob be exposed to user mode?  Does that
> >> > matter so much?  why can't dvfs_lat use the cpu_dma_lat?
> >> >
> >> > BTW I'll be out of town for the next 10 days and probably will not get
> >> > to this email account until I get home.
> >> >
> >> > --mark
> >> >
> >>
> >> 1. Should DVFS Latency be exposed to user mode?
> >>
> >> It would depend on the policy of the given system; however, yes, there
> >> are systems that require a user interface for DVFS Latency.
> >> With the example of user input response (response to user click,
> >> typing, touching, and etc), a user program (probably platform s/w or
> >> middleware) may input QoS requests. Besides, when a new "application"
> >> is starting, such "middleware" may want faster responses from DVFS
> >> mechanisms.
> >
> > But this is a global knob, isn't it?  And it seems that a per-device one
> > is needed rather than that?
> >
> > It also applies to your CPU_DMA_THROUGHPUT thing, doesn't it?
> 
> 
> Yes, the two are global knobs. And both the two control multiple
> devices simultaneously, not just a single device. I suppose per-device
> QoS is appropriate for QoS requests directed to a single device. Am I
> right about this one?
> 
> 
> Let's assume that, in an example system, we have devfreq on GPU,
> memory-Interface, and main bus and CPUfreq (Exynos5 will have them all
> seperated).
> 
> If we use per-device QoS for DVFS LATENCY, in order to control the
> DVFS response latency, we will need to make QoS requests to all the
> four devices independently, not to the global DVFS LATENCY QOS CLASS.
> There, we could have a shared single QoS request list for these four
> DVFS devices, saying that the DVFS response should be done in "50ms"
> after a sudden utilization increase.
> 
> We may be able to use "dev_pm_qos_add_notifier()" for a virtual device
> representing "DVFS Latency" or "DMA Throughput" and let the GPU, CPU,
> main-bus, and memory-interface listen to the events from the virtual
> device. Hmm..., do you recommend this approach? creating a device
> representing "DVFS" as a whole (both CPUFreq and device drivers of
> devfreq).
> 
> CPU_DMA_THROUGHPUT is quite similar as CPU_DMA_LATENCY. However, we
> think it is addtionally needed because many IPs (in-SoC devices) need
> to specify its DMA usage in "kbytes/sec", not "usecs/ops". For
> example, a video-decoding chip device driver may say it requires
> "750000kbytes/sec" for 1080p60, "300000kbytes/sec" for 720p60, and so
> on, which affects CPUfreq, memory-interface, and main-bus at the same
> time.
I have an example of a need for cpu_dma_throughput for x86 soc's as
well.  Mostly my example comes down to on-demand thinking the work load
is low (gpu is doing all the work) yet the work load needs a higher
clock rates between frame times to avoid buffer under running the gfx
pipe).

My version of the patch didn't fly too well because it failed to offer a
scalable definition of the units of cpu_dma_throughput.  I tried using
KHZ as the unit (the units used in cpufreq).  However; Applications
written to assume HZ units on one system would need to re-written on the
next.  Perhaps using bandwidth would be better than throughput?



> >
> >> 2. Does DVFS Latency matter?
> >>
> >> Yes, in our experimental sets w/ Exynos4210 (those slapped in Galaxy
> >> S2 equivalent; not exactly as I'm not conducted in Android systems,
> >> but Tizen), we could see noticable difference w/ bare eyes for
> >> user-input responses. When we shortened DVFS polling interval with
> >> touches, the touch responses were greatly improved; e.g., losing 10
> >> frames into losing 0 or 1 frame for a sudden input rush.
> >
> > Well, this basically means PM QoS matters, which is kind of obvious.
> > It doesn't mean that it can't be implemented in a better way, though.
> 
> For DVFS-Latency and DMA-Throughput, I think a normal pm-qos-dev (one
> device per one qos knob) isn't appropriate because there are multiple
> devices that are required to react simultaneously.
> 
> It is possible to let multiple devices react by adding notifiers with
> dev_pm_qos_add_notifier(). However, I felt that it wasn't the purpose
> of this one and it might get things ugly. Anyway, was allowing
> multiple devices to change their frequencies/voltages for a single
> per-device QoS list the purpose of dev_pm_qos_add_notifier()?
> 
> 
> Just throwing an idea and suggestion if it was the purpose,
> I speculate that If we are going to do this (supporting multiple
> devices per one qos knob without adding QoS class), we'd better create
> "qos class device" in /drivers/qos/ and let those qos class handle
> multiple devices depending on a single "qos class". Probably, this
> will transform "global PM-QoS class" that notifies related devices
> into "QoS class device" that notifies related devices.
> 
> >
> >> 3. Why not replace DVFS Latency w/ CPU-DMA-Latency/Throughput?
> >>
> >> When we implement the user-input response enhancement with CPU-DMA QoS
> >> requests, the PM-QoS will unconditionally increase CPU and BUS
> >> frequencies/voltages with user inputs. However, with many cases it is
> >> unnecessary; i.e., a user input means that there will be unexpected
> >> changes soon; however, the change does not mean that the load will
> >> increase. Thus, allowing DVFS mechanism to evolve faster was enough to
> >> shorten the response time and not to increase frequencies and voltages
> >> when not needed. There were significant difference in power
> >> consumption with this changes if the user inputs were not involving
> >> drastic graphics jobs; e.g., typing a text message.
> >
> > Again, you're arguing for having PM QoS rather than not having it.  You don't
> > have to do that. :-)
> >
> > Generally speaking, I don't think we should add any more PM QoS "classes"
> > as defined in pm_qos.h, since they are global and there's only one
> > list of requests per class.  While that may be good for CPU power
> > management (in an SMP system all CPUs are identical, so the same list of
> > requests may be applied to all of them), it generally isn't for I/O
> > devices (some of them work in different time scales, for example).
> >
> > So, for example, most likely, a list of PM QoS requests for storage devices
> > shouldn't be applied to input devices (keyboards and mice to be precise) and
> > vice versa.
> >
> > On the other hand, I don't think that applications should access PM QoS
> > interfaces associated with individual devices directly, because they may
> > not have enough information about the relationships between devices in the
> > system.  So, perhaps, there needs to be an interface allowing applications
> > to specify their PM QoS expectations in a general way (e.g. "I want <number>
> > disk I/O throughput") and a code layer between that interface and device
> > drivers translating those expecataions into PM QoS requests for specific
> > devices.
> 
> With DVFS Latency PM QoS Class, we can say "I want the system to react
> in 50ms for any sudden utilization increases.". Without it, we should
> say, for example, "CPUFreq/Ondemand should set interval at 25ms,
> Devfreq/Bus should set interval at 25ms, and Devfreq/GPU should set
> interval at 10ms."
> 
> And with CPU Throughput PM QoS Class, we can say "I want 1000000
> kbytes/sec DMA transfer". Without it, we should say "Memory-Interface
> at 1000000 kbytes/sec, Exynos4412 core should be at least 500MHz, and
> Bus should be at least 166MHz".
> 

What things are coming down to is we need to see if we can identify good
abstractions that can be portable / scalable across ISA's and boards,
such that applications would not need to be changed to work correctly
across all of them.

One issue I have with adding a single DVFS latency and throughput pm-qos
parameter is that what Device the DVFS *really* means changes from one
board to the next.  Thus making it impossible to abstract to user mode.

--mark
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