Message-ID: <20120326143804.GA6739@envy17>
Date:	Mon, 26 Mar 2012 07:38:04 -0700
From:	mark gross <markgross@...gnar.org>
To:	MyungJoo Ham <myungjoo.ham@...il.com>
Cc:	markgross@...gnar.org, "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl>,
	Stephen Rothwell <sfr@...b.auug.org.au>,
	Dave Jones <davej@...hat.com>, linux-pm@...r.kernel.org,
	"linux-next@...r.kernel.org" <linux-next@...r.kernel.org>,
	Len Brown <len.brown@...el.com>, Pavel Machek <pavel@....cz>,
	Kevin Hilman <khilman@...com>, Jean Pihet <j-pihet@...com>,
	kyungmin.park@...sung.com, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v3] PM / QoS: Introduce new classes: DMA-Throughput and
 DVFS-Latency

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 09:06:48PM +0900, MyungJoo Ham wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 2:06 AM, mark gross <markgross@...gnar.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 05:30:33PM +0900, MyungJoo Ham wrote:
> >> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Rafael J. Wysocki <rjw@...k.pl> wrote:
> >> > On Friday, March 09, 2012, MyungJoo Ham wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:47 PM, mark gross <markgross@...gnar.org> wrote:
> >> >> > On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 02:02:01PM +0900, MyungJoo Ham wrote:
> >> >> >> 1. CPU_DMA_THROUGHPUT
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> 2. DVFS_LATENCY
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The cpu_dma_throughput looks ok to me.  I do however; wonder about the
> >> >> > dvfs_lat_pm_qos.  Should that knob be exposed to user mode?  Does that
> >> >> > matter so much?  why can't dvfs_lat use the cpu_dma_lat?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > BTW I'll be out of town for the next 10 days and probably will not get
> >> >> > to this email account until I get home.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --mark
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> 1. Should DVFS Latency be exposed to user mode?
> >> >>
> >> >> It would depend on the policy of the given system; however, yes, there
> >> >> are systems that require a user interface for DVFS Latency.
> >> >> With the example of user input response (response to user click,
> >> >> typing, touching, and etc), a user program (probably platform s/w or
> >> >> middleware) may input QoS requests. Besides, when a new "application"
> >> >> is starting, such "middleware" may want faster responses from DVFS
> >> >> mechanisms.
> >> >
> >> > But this is a global knob, isn't it?  And it seems that a per-device one
> >> > is needed rather than that?
> >> >
> >> > It also applies to your CPU_DMA_THROUGHPUT thing, doesn't it?
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, the two are global knobs. And both the two control multiple
> >> devices simultaneously, not just a single device. I suppose per-device
> >> QoS is appropriate for QoS requests directed to a single device. Am I
> >> right about this one?
> >>
> >>
> >> Let's assume that, in an example system, we have devfreq on GPU,
> >> memory-Interface, and main bus and CPUfreq (Exynos5 will have them all
> >> seperated).
> >>
> >> If we use per-device QoS for DVFS LATENCY, in order to control the
> >> DVFS response latency, we will need to make QoS requests to all the
> >> four devices independently, not to the global DVFS LATENCY QOS CLASS.
> >> There, we could have a shared single QoS request list for these four
> >> DVFS devices, saying that the DVFS response should be done in "50ms"
> >> after a sudden utilization increase.
> >>
> >> We may be able to use "dev_pm_qos_add_notifier()" for a virtual device
> >> representing "DVFS Latency" or "DMA Throughput" and let the GPU, CPU,
> >> main-bus, and memory-interface listen to the events from the virtual
> >> device. Hmm..., do you recommend this approach? creating a device
> >> representing "DVFS" as a whole (both CPUFreq and device drivers of
> >> devfreq).
> >>
> >> CPU_DMA_THROUGHPUT is quite similar as CPU_DMA_LATENCY. However, we
> >> think it is addtionally needed because many IPs (in-SoC devices) need
> >> to specify its DMA usage in "kbytes/sec", not "usecs/ops". For
> >> example, a video-decoding chip device driver may say it requires
> >> "750000kbytes/sec" for 1080p60, "300000kbytes/sec" for 720p60, and so
> >> on, which affects CPUfreq, memory-interface, and main-bus at the same
> >> time.
> > I have an example of a need for cpu_dma_throughput for x86 soc's as
> > well.  Mostly my example comes down to on-demand thinking the work load
> > is low (gpu is doing all the work) yet the work load needs a higher
> > clock rates between frame times to avoid buffer under running the gfx
> > pipe).
> >
> > My version of the patch didn't fly too well because it failed to offer a
> > scalable definition of the units of cpu_dma_throughput.  I tried using
> > KHZ as the unit (the units used in cpufreq).  However; Applications
> > written to assume HZ units on one system would need to re-written on the
> > next.  Perhaps using bandwidth would be better than throughput?
> >
> >
> 
> The unit itself won't change whether we use bandwidth or throughput
> here; i.e., throughput is often referred as "effective bandwidth". For
> applications and middleware, throughput is more attractive than
> bandwidth because they will prefer to express what they want
> (throughput or "effective" bandwidth), not what the devices should do
> (bandwidth). For example, the bandwidth of a 100MHz-128bit bus is
> 12.8Gbps; however, if this bus is considered to be saturated at 30% of
> its bandwidth, the throughput will be around 3.84Gbps. The QoS users
> will prefer the latter because it can be expressed independently from
> the architecture; it doesn't matter if it is saturated at 30% or 50%.
> Besides, such variables should be known to the bus device driver
> (i.e., "exynos4-bus" devfreq driver, which assumes 30% or 40%
> depending on architectures).
> 
> Anyway, we've been using kHz with a test version of this (driven by
> GPUs like your example), which has to be changed even between Exynos4
> series. :)
> 
> >
> >> >
> >> >> 2. Does DVFS Latency matter?
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, in our experimental sets w/ Exynos4210 (those slapped in Galaxy
> >> >> S2 equivalent; not exactly as I'm not conducted in Android systems,
> >> >> but Tizen), we could see noticable difference w/ bare eyes for
> >> >> user-input responses. When we shortened DVFS polling interval with
> >> >> touches, the touch responses were greatly improved; e.g., losing 10
> >> >> frames into losing 0 or 1 frame for a sudden input rush.
> >> >
> >> > Well, this basically means PM QoS matters, which is kind of obvious.
> >> > It doesn't mean that it can't be implemented in a better way, though.
> >>
> >> For DVFS-Latency and DMA-Throughput, I think a normal pm-qos-dev (one
> >> device per one qos knob) isn't appropriate because there are multiple
> >> devices that are required to react simultaneously.
> >>
> >> It is possible to let multiple devices react by adding notifiers with
> >> dev_pm_qos_add_notifier(). However, I felt that it wasn't the purpose
> >> of this one and it might get things ugly. Anyway, was allowing
> >> multiple devices to change their frequencies/voltages for a single
> >> per-device QoS list the purpose of dev_pm_qos_add_notifier()?
> >>
> >>
> >> Just throwing an idea and suggestion if it was the purpose,
> >> I speculate that If we are going to do this (supporting multiple
> >> devices per one qos knob without adding QoS class), we'd better create
> >> "qos class device" in /drivers/qos/ and let those qos class handle
> >> multiple devices depending on a single "qos class". Probably, this
> >> will transform "global PM-QoS class" that notifies related devices
> >> into "QoS class device" that notifies related devices.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> 3. Why not replace DVFS Latency w/ CPU-DMA-Latency/Throughput?
> >> >>
> >> >> When we implement the user-input response enhancement with CPU-DMA QoS
> >> >> requests, the PM-QoS will unconditionally increase CPU and BUS
> >> >> frequencies/voltages with user inputs. However, with many cases it is
> >> >> unnecessary; i.e., a user input means that there will be unexpected
> >> >> changes soon; however, the change does not mean that the load will
> >> >> increase. Thus, allowing DVFS mechanism to evolve faster was enough to
> >> >> shorten the response time and not to increase frequencies and voltages
> >> >> when not needed. There were significant difference in power
> >> >> consumption with this changes if the user inputs were not involving
> >> >> drastic graphics jobs; e.g., typing a text message.
> >> >
> >> > Again, you're arguing for having PM QoS rather than not having it.  You don't
> >> > have to do that. :-)
> >> >
> >> > Generally speaking, I don't think we should add any more PM QoS "classes"
> >> > as defined in pm_qos.h, since they are global and there's only one
> >> > list of requests per class.  While that may be good for CPU power
> >> > management (in an SMP system all CPUs are identical, so the same list of
> >> > requests may be applied to all of them), it generally isn't for I/O
> >> > devices (some of them work in different time scales, for example).
> >> >
> >> > So, for example, most likely, a list of PM QoS requests for storage devices
> >> > shouldn't be applied to input devices (keyboards and mice to be precise) and
> >> > vice versa.
> >> >
> >> > On the other hand, I don't think that applications should access PM QoS
> >> > interfaces associated with individual devices directly, because they may
> >> > not have enough information about the relationships between devices in the
> >> > system.  So, perhaps, there needs to be an interface allowing applications
> >> > to specify their PM QoS expectations in a general way (e.g. "I want <number>
> >> > disk I/O throughput") and a code layer between that interface and device
> >> > drivers translating those expecataions into PM QoS requests for specific
> >> > devices.
> >>
> >> With DVFS Latency PM QoS Class, we can say "I want the system to react
> >> in 50ms for any sudden utilization increases.". Without it, we should
> >> say, for example, "CPUFreq/Ondemand should set interval at 25ms,
> >> Devfreq/Bus should set interval at 25ms, and Devfreq/GPU should set
> >> interval at 10ms."
> >>
> >> And with CPU Throughput PM QoS Class, we can say "I want 1000000
> >> kbytes/sec DMA transfer". Without it, we should say "Memory-Interface
> >> at 1000000 kbytes/sec, Exynos4412 core should be at least 500MHz, and
> >> Bus should be at least 166MHz".
> >>
> >
> > What things are coming down to is we need to see if we can identify good
> > abstractions that can be portable / scalable across ISA's and boards,
> > such that applications would not need to be changed to work correctly
> > across all of them.
> >
> > One issue I have with adding a single DVFS latency and throughput pm-qos
> > parameter is that what Device the DVFS *really* means changes from one
> > board to the next.  Thus making it impossible to abstract to user mode.
> >
> > --mark
> 
> Does "what QoS/DVFS really means changes from one board to the next"
> mean that the specific behavior with the same QoS request changes from
> one board to the next?

I mean that on one board the DVFS could be used for constraining the VFS
of say the audio codec but on another board its use for constraining the
VFS of the graphics chip.

> In other words, for a 10MByte/sec CPU_DMA_THROUGHPUT QoS request,
> - In board A, it means setting CPU at least at 200MHz,
> Memory-interface at 166MHz, Bus at 166MHz.
> - In board B, it means seeting Bus at least at 200MHz.
> Or, for a 50ms DVFS_LATENCY QoS request,
> - In board A, it means setting cpufreq interval at 30ms
> - In board B, it means setting cpufreq interval at 30ms,
> devfreq-memory at 30ms, devfreq-GPU at 20ms.
> 
> Is the issue you've mentioned the difference between board A and B
> above? or something else I'm missing?
> 
> 
> My understanding is that (global) PM-QoS is abstracting (hiding) what
> PM-QoS really does to hardware from userspace or other QoS user device
> drivers by allowing to express the requirement in the user side (what
> users want, not the h/w or device drivers do).
> 
> What userspace needs to know (or to express) is:
> NETWORK_THROUGHPUT: how many kbytes per sec can we send? (abstracting
> how bus, NIC react to such requests; e.g., some NIC does 100MHz for
> 10Mbps, some other NICs do 33MHz for 10Mbps, and such)
> CPU_DMA_THROUGHPUT: how many kbytes per sec can we send? (abstracting
> how bus device driver and memory-interface driver does; e.g., for
> 100Mbps, bus: 100MHz, mif: 100MHz in machine A, for 100Mbps, bus:
> 133MHz, mif: 200MHz in machine B, and such)
> DVFS_LATENCY: how long may we wait for DVFS mechanisms to react?
for which device?
there can be a number of devices that can do VFS.  Which one should the
DVFS_LATENCY be associated with?  And how would user mode know which one
its effecting by hitting the misc device node interface?

> (abstracting how each devfreq/cpufreq driver behave). An FPS game
> might want 10ms, a web browser may want 20ms, and a touch screen event
> might want 10ms, and a menuscreen (home screen) manager may want 50ms.
> Based on this QoS value, the polling interval of cpufreq/devfreq
> devices may be changed. If there were only cpufreq for DVFS
> mechanisms, I won't bother with this issue. However, there may be
> multiple DVFS devices with independent polling intervals; thus,
> without some interfaces like DVFS_LATENCY, userspace or QoS-requesting
> device drivers need to know and control every DVFS device's polling
> interval making them dependent on specific boards/devices.
> 
> 
> ps. For the example Rafael wanted for CPU_DMA_THROUGHPUT, I'll create
> one when the corresponding (Qos-requesting) device drivers are ready
> to be upstreamed. The device driver is with KHz of memory-interface,
> yet.
>
That sounds cool.

--mark


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