Message-ID: <20120804224705.GD10459@redhat.com>
Date:	Sun, 5 Aug 2012 00:47:05 +0200
From:	Andrea Arcangeli <aarcange@...hat.com>
To:	"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>
Cc:	Hugh Dickins <hughd@...gle.com>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Nick Piggin <npiggin@...nel.dk>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-arch@...r.kernel.org, linux-mm@...ck.org
Subject: Re: [RFC] page-table walkers vs memory order

On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 03:02:45PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> OK, I'll bite.  ;-)

:))

> The most sane way for this to happen is with feedback-driven techniques
> involving profiling, similar to what is done for basic-block reordering
> or branch prediction.  The idea is that you compile the kernel in an
> as-yet (and thankfully) mythical pointer-profiling mode, which records
> the values of pointer loads and also measures the pointer-load latency.
> If a situation is found where a given pointer almost always has the
> same value but has high load latency (for example, is almost always a
> high-latency cache miss), this fact is recorded and fed back into a
> subsequent kernel build.  This subsequent kernel build might choose to
> speculate the value of the pointer concurrently with the pointer load.
> 
> And of course, when interpreting the phrase "most sane way" at the
> beginning of the prior paragraph, it would probably be wise to keep
> in mind who wrote it.  And that "most sane way" might have little or
> no resemblance to anything that typical kernel hackers would consider
> anywhere near sanity.  ;-)

I see. The above scenario is sure fair enough assumption. We're
clearly stretching the constraints to see what is theoretically
possible and this is a very clear explanation of how gcc could have an
hardcoded "guessed" address in the .text.

Next step to clearify now, is how gcc can safely dereference such a
"guessed" address without the kernel knowing about it.

If gcc would really dereference a guessed address coming from a
profiling run without kernel being aware of it, it would eventually
crash the kernel with an oops. gcc cannot know what another CPU will
do with the kernel pagetables. It'd be perfectly legitimate to
temporarily move the data at the "guessed address" to another page and
to update the pointer through stop_cpu during some weird "cpu
offlining scenario" or anything you can imagine. I mean gcc must
behave in all cases so it's not allowed to deference the guessed
address at any given time.

The only way gcc could do the alpha thing and dereference the guessed
address before the real pointer, is with cooperation with the kernel.
The kernel should provide gcc "safe ranges" that won't crash the
kernel, and/or gcc could provide a .fixup section similar to the
current .fixup and the kernel should look it up during the page fault
handler in case the kernel is ok with temporarily getting faults in
that range. And in turn it can't happen unless we explicitly decide to
allow gcc to do it.

> > Furthermore the ACCESS_ONCE that Peter's patch added to gup_fast
> > pud/pgd can't prevent the compiler to read a guessed pmdp address as a
> > volatile variable, before reading the pmdp pointer and compare it with
> > the guessed address! So if it's 5 you worry about, when adding
> > ACCESS_ONCE in pudp/pgdp/pmdp is useless and won't fix it. You should
> > have added a barrier() instead.
> 
> Most compiler writers I have discussed this with agreed that a volatile
> cast would suppress value speculation.  The "volatile" keyword is not
> all that well specified in the C and C++ standards, but as "nix" said
> at http://lwn.net/Articles/509731/:
> 
> 	volatile's meaning as 'minimize optimizations applied to things
> 	manipulating anything of volatile type, do not duplicate, elide,
> 	move, fold, spindle or mutilate' is of long standing.

Ok, so if the above optimization would be possible, volatile would
stop it too, thanks for the quote and the explanation.

On a side note I believe there's a few barrier()s that may be worth
converting to ACCESS_ONCE, that would take care of case 6) too in
addition to avoid clobbering more CPU registers than strictly
necessary. Not very important but a possible microoptimization.

> That said, value speculation as a compiler optimization makes me a bit
> nervous, so my current feeling is that is should be suppressed entirely.
> 
> Hey, you asked, even if only implicitly!  ;-)

You're reading my mind! :)
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